SHOULD A BAPTIST CHURCH EMBRACE PENTECOSTALISM?

PB Ministries ^ | 20-Oct-2010 | Laurence A Justice

[Cronos]

Right now there are churches in almost every country which call themselves Baptists on the sign out front who, nevertheless, arc not Baptists, but in reality are Pentecostal churches.

....Pentecostalism is the belief that the miraculous gifts or signs which the Lord gave to the Apostles and others in the early churches have not ceased, but are still available and are still being exercised by today’s Christians. Pentecostalism claims that God still gives these miraculous gifts to men today. Lists of these gifts can be found in Mark 16:17-18 and 1 Corinthians 12:8-11.

..God’s extraordinary gifts are called this in contrast to those He ordinarily gives in all ages. They are ordinarily not given, but rather were given on extraordinary occasions. These extraordinary gifts were supernatural gifts that enabled their possessors to perform supernatural deeds. Usually when Pentecostals today speak of the gifts or the charismata, they are speaking of these extraordinary gifts, that is, healing, miracles, tongues, direct revelations from God, casting out demons. Pentecostalism teaches that these miraculous gifts, these charismata, are still available to Christians today

[Quix]

Thanks for your kind reply.

I go to a "faith healer" to be cured of my debilitating back injury and intractable pain. I am prayed over, hands have been laid upon me and I have been anointed with oil but I do not get any better. Now if I was judging the Bible by my experience I would say:
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1. God must not love me.
2. God is lying when he says "by his stripes we are healed".
3. God cannot or does not answer my prayers or the prayers of others.
4. The people who prayed for me could not have had the "gift of healing".
5. God must enjoy my suffering.

6. There's something I don't understand about my life that is hindering the healing . . .
7. perhaps there's a spiritual stronghold invovled . . .
8. ancestral demonic forces, . . .
9. unforgiveness . . .
10. bitterness . . .
11. perhaps I need to confess my faults to another believer that I might be healed according to Scripture . . . [see Henry Wright A MORE EXCELLENT WAY and
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http://www.beinhealth.com"
.
and/or
12. There is something about the timing that I don't understand . . . and/or
13. There is something about the ministry of the others involved that I don't know or understand.

On the other hand, if I judged my experience by the Bible I would instead understand that

1. God loves me and that can and will never change.
2. "By his stripes we are healed" doesn't mean physical healing but spiritual.

I think that's UNMITIGATED UNBIBLICAL NONSENSE. There's not a shred of Biblical evidence that indicates, to me, that Christ and Paul meant that as anything less than physical healing. There's grounds for saying it meant more than physical healing but not that it meant less than physical healing.

3. God does incline his ear to our prayers and the prayer of a righteous man avails much but sometimes God allows suffering for a higher purpose.

I don't know that Henry Wright would call it a higher purpose. He just notes the list of things that hinder healings of particular diseases, according to what God over more than 20 years of ministry has shown him.

He became upset that only 5% of the people he prayed for got healed. Then finally God began to show him why. Chronic sins, unforgiveness, ancestral demonic strongholds etc. God noted that otherwise, folks would have the impression that God winked at sin etc. Now, Pastor Wright, IIRC, has above 80% success rate in praying for healing when folks will apply the prescriptions to deal with the spiritual & relationship issues involved. Many healings are dramatic and instant. Many are walked out over time. Many involve deadly rare diseases that are not economical for the medical community to bother with.

4. Although the gift of healing as a "sign gift" that was given to the apostles has ceased, it does not mean that God cannot or will not miraculously heal.

I believe that is UNMITIGATED UNBIBLICAL NONSENSE. There's not a shred of Scripture to indicate that any such thing has ceased. Mankind has not changed. Satan has not changed. Man's needs have not changed and certainly God has not changed.

Mark 16: 18 still applies
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". . . they will place their hands on sick people and they will get well."

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This is still the New Testament Church era/age/dispensation. The verse still applies.

Sounds like you were judging that Scripture by your EXPERIENCE.

In terms of the I Cor 13 verses, Knowledge has certainly not ceased either. He who is Perfect has also not returned yet to set up His Perfect Kingdom, yet.

5. God does not permit suffering in his kid's life because he enjoys it but that my suffering can have a higher purpose for his glory. His strength is made perfect through my weakness.

True enough, in some respects. Though, as Pastor Wright might say--then why seek healing if it's God's will for you to be sick. There's not really any Scripture that indicates it is God's will for His kids to remain sick and weakened.

Again, let me say I am NOT casting aspersions or criticizing Christians,

I accept that. Nor am I.

I will fiercely cast aspersions on what I perceive to be rank UNBIBLICAL NONSENSE. It is nothing personal, at all.

I am instead asking my brethren in the Lord to question the reasons why they experience what they do and to measure those experiences by what God's holy word says.

My perception was as noted above that you judged Scripture erroneously by your EXPERIENCE.

It seems as though there is some hostility towards anyone who may not see things exactly the way we do and all I want to communicate is that we can sit down and reason together without condemnation and hard feelings.

Of course. Likewise.

I am not judging, but rather I am asking for objective consideration of what God reveals to us through his word.

As am I!

Am off to Hastings for a break and some Chinese chess.

[boatbums]

I think that's UNMITIGATED UNBIBLICAL NONSENSE. There's not a shred of Biblical evidence that indicates, to me, that Christ and Paul meant that as anything less than physical healing. There's grounds for saying it meant more than physical healing but not that it meant less than physical healing.

Then I would ask why don't they heal everyone who comes to them? The Apostles and Jesus certainly did.

Tell me why Paul said he asked God three times to take his affliction from him and it was not removed. He said:

2 Corinthians 12:6-10
6 Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say, 7 or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

[Quix]

DEAR DEAR HEART BOATBUMS,

I want to emphasize . . .

my forceful words about the issues are not at all directed at you personally, your personhood, your heart, your spirituality etc, per se.

My forcefulness is directed at SOME of the ideas which you assert, which I’ve contended with, most of my adult life.

I continue to hold you in extremely high regard and great fondness in my heart, mind and spirit.

As you know, I’m . . . how to put it . . . not often given to super gentle graciousness about ideas I believe to be UNBIBLICAL about important-to-me issues of our walk in The Lord, in His Spirit etc.

That should not be interpreted to EQUAL a lack of respect or caring toward those who hold what I consider erroneous, UNBIBLICAL perspectives.

Goodness, I even respect and care for virtually all the RC’s who attack me personally and assaultively. And you are far better in dialogue than that pattern. I care about all of them but I don’t respect all of them.

I deeply respect you, care for you and admire you.

I just disagree somewhat forcefully about some aspects of your perspective on this issue.

[boatbums]

Well thank you for that. This can be an area where we agree to disagree, then.

[Quix]

Then I would ask why don't they heal everyone who comes to them? The Apostles and Jesus certainly did.

No. Jesus did not--NOT IN EVERY situation. He did not in Nazareth--because of their unbelief. That's plain Scripture.

You listed some possible reasons in an earlier post. Are you flushing those now?

I think that's a straw dog. Even in the New Testament, it was not at all 100% the case that all the sick in a given situation were healed at one time. In some cases, they were. It may have been in a majority of cases, that they were but I wouldn't even swear to that without reviewing all the cases.

HOWEVER, I believe that many FREEPERS reading these words will live to see the day WHEN every sick person in a given locale will be healed through the ministry of a Believer--in some cases--via children walking in faith and the anointing and power of Holy Spirit. I don't know why it's not time for that yet. It just isn't, evidently.

Tell me why Paul said he asked God three times to take his affliction from him and it was not removed. He said:

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh are you trying to make that normative for all Christians in all situations? That would be a dubious thing to do, I'd think.

I believe that to some degree, God deals with all of us somewhat uniquely. Certainly, Paul was a unique person in a unique role, trained in unique ways and anointed in unique ways. Not that God hasn't and won't continue to do SIMILAR things with others . . . nevertheless, Paul was one of a kind in some key respects. He alone wrote what . . . 2/3 of the NT.

On the other side of the coin, I could allow that the idea of a 'thorn in the flesh' being used of God to keep Believers humble is not at all far fetched and probably has occurred with more than just Paul. I've got a thing or two that I've wondered about remaining in my life toward such ends regardless of hours beseeching The Lord to remove such.

However, I think it's a great flying leap across the Atlantic to construe that as justification to explain why God doesn't heal more people more routinely in more Pentecostal/Charismatic services.

I think a more fitting question is why don't more congregations in more denominations apply Mark 16:17-18 literally as Scripture makes clear it's meant to be applied?

And, no, I'm NOT talking about the idiocy of tempting God by deliberately handling snakes and drinking poison. Folks need some God-given horse sense about such Scriptures. It's clearly talking about accidental, unknown serpents and poison such as when Paul was picking up firewood on that island. And, YES I believe that promise is to all believers of all centuries in the CHURCH ERA/AGE/DISPENSATION--which we are still clearly in.

2 Corinthians 12:6-10
6 Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say, 7 or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

.

I don't believe that God per se wants a weak church or weak believers. I do believe that God is happy to use our weaknesses to keep us humble and seeking Him and to manifest Himself more powerfully through us somehow in relationship to our weaknesses.

[johngrace]

Also remember that John Macarthur puts all tongues in the same label as pagans. I read his book "Charismatic Chaos" book. He believes there not for today thus if some say they do it's of the enemy. He is a cessationist.

In Christian theology, Cessationism is the view that the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as tongues, prophecy and healing, ceased being practiced early on in Church history.

[Cronos]

The lies I think McArthur is spouting are:
1. He implies that pentecostalists/charismatics are only seeking for sensual, he says almost erotic contact with God
2. He states that there is non-existent or faulty biblical teaching among charistmatics and gives no proof for this and uses a blanket statement.
3. He incorrectly compares the charismatic/pentecostal movement to possession of people by unholy spirits (Zulus etc).

To reply to your questions:
1. How can they just turn it off and on at will? Isn't it supposed to be a manifestation of God's power as a sign?
--> I wondered this too, but Quix pointed out that this is because God seems to let us disagree or even reject him (Jonas comes to mind) -- God will follow us and even (as in J's case) pester us to allow Him to use us as weapons) -- he does not abuse us and does not treat us as robotons (again in Jonas's case, he could have forced him and Jonas was allowed to run away until he agreed -- God did not treat Jonas as a robot). The pentecostal experience seems to be not "turning off and on at will" but rather saying yes at a time when the Holy Spirit wishes to use you as a tool

2 --> I don't know,

3. What is passing as a legitimate manifestation of the Holy Spirit in the speaking of tongues can quite easily be faked,
--> True, but is that implying that all or most of the pentecostal experience is faked?

I think MacArthur makes a legitimate point about the similarities with what happens in a lot of Charismatic churches today and what happened in pagan worship
--> There are similarities, yes, but then the same argument is used or has been used to say that Christianity with it's dying and rising god is similar to any number of early pagan religions (from Baal to Osiris), that there are similarities does not mean they are the same (secular example: pyramids in Egypt and Mesoamerica does not mean they had contact, it's just an efficient way to build and copies mountains)

we should judge our experiences by the Bible and not the Bible by our experiences
--> I agree 100% with that, but no one is doing the latter.

[Cronos]

“Moses before Pharaoh was not a robot. “ —> good point.

[Cronos]

How many recent examples have we had of pastors and evangelists from the Charismatic movement getting into serious trouble over carnal sins including adultery, rape, embezzlement, fraud, etc.?

I forgot to add -- the shoe fits the other foot. One could point out the cases of pastors from various denominations getting into trouble. The key point is the % of these -- is it <5% or <10%? If yes, then how can one blame the majority of 90% to 95% for the actions of 5-10%?

Even worse, how can one blame the basic dogma of the Charismatic movement for the malactions of a few pastors? There will always be bad apples, that does not mean the basic dogma is false. Example -- if we have Carter, Clinton and Obama, does that mean that the US constitution and indeed the entire entire notion of the US is false? No, it isn't. Similary the analogy of a few charismatic con-men does not mean the entire movement is wrong.

[Cronos]

bb: Tell me why Paul said he asked God three times to take his affliction from him and it was not removed.

Quix: are you trying to make that normative for all Christians in all situations? That would be a dubious thing to do, I'd think.

Correct, as you point out, " Paul was a unique person in a unique role, trained in unique ways and anointed in unique ways. Not that God hasn't and won't continue to do SIMILAR things with others "

[Cronos]

interesting -- I've never heard that term before, but wikipedia says

Cessationists generally believe that the miraculous gifts were given only for the foundation of the Church, during the time between the coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, c. AD 33 (see Acts 2) and the fulfillment of God's purposes in history, usually identified as either the completion of the last book of the New Testament or the death of the last Apostle, i.e. John the Apostle.

No wonder John MacArthur considers charismatics and pagans the same. Though of course, why should the words of a small group (8000)'s pastor mean that charismatics should doubt themselves?

[Cronos]

More from wikipedia

Strong Cessationism denies the possibility of a reemergence of the gifts on grounds of principle; that is, the denial is on a priori grounds: a strong Cessationist would deny the possibility of the existence or a reemergence of genuine God's prophets and healers in the post-Apostolic age, i.e. after the first century, no matter what – even if we met prophets or healers who prophesied/healed in the name of Jesus.

YET there is considerable proof AGAINST Cessationism and FOR the continuation of God's gifts to mankind

Justin Martyr wrote in an apologetic to Typhro the Jew: "If you want proof that the Spirit of God, who was with your people and left you to come to us, come into our assemblies and there you will see Him cast out demons, heal the sick, and hear Him speak in tongues and prophesy."

Irenaeus was a pupil of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John. He wrote in his book "Against Heresies", Book V, vi.: "In like manner do we also hear many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual."

"Those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe [in Christ], and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years…. The name of our Lord Jesus Christ even now confers benefits [upon men], and cures thoroughly and effectively all who anywhere believe on Him. " Ante Nicene Fathers, vol 1, Irenaeus Against Heresies, bk 2, chp 32, sec 4, pg 847.

[johngrace]

If I can remember this term Cessationism in the modern era was coined from a reaction. When the 1800's came along an explosion of the christian supernatural became well known through out the world. Also people reported visions and wonders.

One event to curtail or influence this was a rejection of any experiences. This happened at the Niagara Bible Conference or other conferences in 1876 to 1896. Many great fundamentalist writers would go to these. This was a forerunner of this type of thinking. It become a movement which almost elected William Bryans Jenning as president. These same types influenced prohibition in the 1920's.

[Cronos]

Thank you for pointing out this term to me, I had no idea that people doubted that God could act today as He did in days of old.

[Quix]

I agree.

[Quix]

Thanks for your kind and apt replies.

[Quix]

INDEED. Thx.

[Quix]

YUP.

[Quix]

I think one of the reasons I have such little respect for so much Cessessationist hogwash is . . .

it insultingly to God pretends that He essentially rolled up the sidewalk and went home leaving us more or less at satan’s mercy without Holy Spirit’s power.

What an outrageous idea!

[johngrace]

It will also explain the reaction of some to the debate on certain christian subjects. Some I believe really believe this stuff especially when they quote from this cessationast ilk( like John Macarthur or James White both anti charismatic and catholic).