What I Would have Said...

I have a young friend, an acquaintance by e-mail, who was raised as an evangelical christian, as a young man entered into liturgical christianity, became greek orthodox for a while, and has recently come out as an Atheist!

He is very articulate and highly educated, but tells me that he just can't remain a christian, or even a theist, and maintain his intellectual integrity.

We exchanged several e-mails, he was touched that I cared for his soul, and agreed to dialogue with me. I was going to give him an apologetic,(from 1 Peter 3:15, "always be ready to give an apologia for the hope you have in Christ...") that is a reason for my hope.

But in the preliminary exchanges I mentioned to him that I really do not believe Atheism is an honest position. He took an exception to that, feeling I had already impugned his character. I explained that I was coming from Paul's letter to the Romans, which gives an analysis of the mindset of the godless, that they suppress the truth in unrighteousness, making them liable to God's wrath.

I assured him that I believed that he was operating in good faith with me, but that he was deceiving himself , but it was too late. The dialogue was called off, he is not open to hearing anything more from me, because I believe that Atheism is a suppression of truth, a denial of that which is known of God.

I have to confess that I am grieved. This encounter has made me more aware of the ravages of what is called "the New Atheism" on young people, as well as the bitter, toxic fruit of our increasingly secularized education system, which is to the point of being hostile to God and religion, (unless of course, it is Islam)..

There are a good many young, bright, articulate young people who are not ashamed to identify themselves as Atheists. They are going on you tube and other venues to present their sophisticated philosophical rebuttals of christianity and Theism in general.

Oh, another contributing factor to this Atheistic revival,is the man centered, shallow but pervasive "evangelicalism" of the last forty years, that in the interest of being relevant, have presented a contemptible spirituality, denuded of the real gospel, the real Jesus and the true Spirit of God.

What would I have said to him if I could have? He claimed that he had weighed the claims of christianity; scientifically, historically, epistemologically, and empirically and found them wanting. Where to begin my apologetic?Believe me when I tell you I prayed earnestly about it.

God gave me a direction, point to fulfilled prophecy. The Word of God is unique, there is no other "Holy Book" like it. We serve a God who makes predictions through His prophets, amazing predictions that come to pass in startling detail.

...I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:(Isaiah 46:9-10)

I would have begun with Israel, the Billboard of God that shouts out to the world, God is Real! The Bible is indeed the Word of God! Look to God and Be Saved O Ends of the Earth!

* The Bible proclaims that in God's sight there is something special about the Jewish people, and it has nothing to do with their own 'goodness' it is an election of God himself.

For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

* In the first book of the Bible, the promise is given to these people, that Gd himself would "bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you, and that in you all families of the earth would be blessed!"(Genesis 12:3).

History has born this fact out , that those who curse the Jews have always been cursed and those who have blessed them have consequently been blessed! Just in the last century, ask the British, Germans, and Soviet Russians, all of whom were punished for what they did to the Jews.

* The Prophet Daniel predicted that the Messiah would come to this people, and that he would be "cut off", but not for himself but for the sins of the people. Daniel predicted the Messiah's coming to the very year. Also that His cutting off would occur before the second temple would be destroyed by the Romans. (See Daniel 9). This had to occur before 70AD.

* It also predicts that this people, so loved and favored by God would one day defect from Him, and consequently be scattered from one end of the earth to the other, by God! The time would come when there would be no Jewish nation, only a scattered oppressed people.

And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you. (Deut. 4:27)

I will scatter them also among the heathen, whom neither they nor their fathers have known: and I will send a sword after them, till I have consumed them. (Jer 9:16)

* But here is the billboard part; the Hebrew prophets predicted that after a long time, the Jewish people would be gathered back into their ancient land, over the objection of the rest of the world, And this ingathering would precede the end of days.

Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; 6. I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; 7. Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him. (Is.43:5-7)

For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. 4. And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. (Jer. 30:3-4)

Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely: (Jer. 32:37)

Of course this is it in a nutshell, I would 'flesh out" the details. The miracle of 1948 up till now, the gathering of a people, literally dead and scattered to the winds, and the fact that this very people, and the disposal of the God-given land they now dwell in, takes up more than a third of the time of the U.N., is a Billboard shouting to the World repent while there is still time!!!!

But this is no mere academic excercise, I weep and mourn for the soul of RV and a whole lot of other disaffected young people, who have listened to the slick "New Atheistic" message, and cast off any faith in God. God help us to reach them!

**a bunch of guys Jesus should have kicked to the curb if he was thinking clearly at the time.**

Thinking clearly? Wow!

The Lord Jesus made it clear that the Father was in him, guiding his testamony, doing the miracles. I don’t think he came within a country mile of making a bad decision, for he knew ‘what was in man’. He called one of the ones ‘he should have kicked to the curb’ before even physically meeting him! Read the calling of Nathanael in John 1:45-51, and you will notice that Nathanael was astonished that the Lord knew he was, sometime before Philip found him, sitting under a fig tree. Apparently the location was somewhat isolated, for Nathanael was utterly amazed that he had been seen there. (who knows, maybe he had been sneaking a free lunch)

As far as the matter of atheists go, only they that hunger and thirst for righteousness can be filled. As wicked as Saul/Paul was, he did have faith, and when shown the error of his ways, he was born again. The faithful witness can testify of the power of God, and pray. Faith can sprout from a little seed.

My testamony is, that after living 28 yrs with a form of godliness (Calvinist), I had been ignorantly denying the power thereof. Then, a faithful witness told me about the supernatural experience of being filled with the Holy Ghost. I brushed it off, even persecuted (not physically) those that had that experience. I would tell whoever would listen that tongues are of the devil. A few years later, when I was ‘hungry’, I did seek the Lord in earnest, obeying Acts 2:38, and was filled with the Holy Ghost, speaking with other tongues.

We each have a choice. We can believe Creation was an “accident” and all events since have been random or we can believe He created things and everything since has been toward His purposes. We each get to examine the evidence and decide for ourselves. I suspect most believe the latter but then “leave it there”. If one is serious one needs to do what I heard the pastor say one Sunday. “Read the first sentence, if you believe it finish the book. If not, play golf on Sunday.” He continued, “but if you believe it, it should make a difference in your life.”

Your priorities become, God, spouse, family, community, country, profession, those in need, and somewhere way down the list, self. Here is why most refuse to admit they actually do believe, they will not change their priorities from Self, spouse, etc. and way down the list, God. Of course there are many in pews each Sunday who are “still rearranging their priorities...” but then I suppose we all are to some degree.

As a never-believer, I’ve noticed that often (tho not always) former-believers experienced a betrayal of their faith. That is, a great disappointment allowed (by God) to befall them caused them to turn their backs in anger.

If this applies to your friend it should change your method of approach. If he believed once, it’s possible for him to do so again, I’d suppose.

Let me share an experience I am having.
A dear friend of mine (who btw witnessed to me in high school about being “born again”) has a son who is now a young adult, moved to a foreign country, and completely turned against God.
We have had several discussions on facebook. He isn’t a classical Atheist but he has rejected the Jesus of the Bible. He has become a Pseudo-intellectual, spouting off crazy stuff. He has even called Mitchell Heisman his hero. He’s the guy who committed suicide on the steps of Memorial Church of Harvard University in September 2010.I have tried to have an intellectual dialogue with him but I think it is impossible. Quoting scripture is useless to one who rejects it out of hand.

I’m starting to think that atheism is the same mental illness as Marxism/Communism/liberalism. Perhaps even a spiritual “possession”.

What I would have said to Pastor Bill R. is this—is it not written that those who do not believe are condemned already? Is it not said that those of this world cannot understand the heavenly things? Some save by fear plucking them from the fire
hating the very garment defiled by sin. A young PK was visibly shaken at her Assembly of God church production of Heavens Gate and Hells Flames. She got angry at me for reminding her that we can’t save everyone.(in truth we save nobody-it’s all God) It breaks on choice.All we can do is sow seed, and tend the soil.

Quoting scripture will do nothing for the New Atheist inspired non-believer. One has to use logic and fallacies to get the non-believer to question his own non-belief, the way he once questioned his belief.

C.S. Lewis did this with his Trilemma. The New Atheists know Lewis' Trilemma is powerful logic, so to get around it they have endorsed and evangelized the Jesus myth theory, that the existence of Jesus was a fiction.

Likewise, to counter Lee Strobel's arguments in The Case for Christ, the New Atheists attack Strobel, claiming he never was a non-believer, and attack the experts he interviews as being evangelicals, not intellectuals. The New Atheists do not, however, counter the arguments Strobel presents.

So you have to be very selective in how you counter the New Atheists.

The following videos from Australia's Centre for Public Christianity provide one way to powerfully rebut the New Atheists:

The New Atheists questionable history part 1

The New Atheist's questionable history part 2

I would agree with you about it being “Anti-Theism”. From what I have read, most of the “new” atheists actually were raised going to church. The numbers I have read range from 56%-87% of “churched” young people will leave the faith by their 20’s. The ones that I have talked to have become more “anti” then true atheism because they felt that the church had no answers that applied to their lives, and they did not see people living out their faith. This lead them to unbelief. When they then went to college the professor had answers so they accepted what he/she had to say(and the professor lived according to his beliefs)...they turned away from the church and since that was their only connecting with God, they turn against Him as well.

Well stated.

It does start with the issue of creation...can I trust that God did what He actually said He did. If you cannot get past that point it only gets more difficult to trust Him in other areas. Then if I can trust Him, I should obey Him...John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commandments.”

God bless

Atheism is the theology that Marxism/Communism starts from...so yes they are the same at that point. For a good study of worldviews (Humanism, Marxism, Biblical, etc) I would suggest “The Battle For Truth” by David A. Noebel. The book goes into what goes into our worldview...theology, philosophy, ethics, biology, psychology, sociology, law, politics, economics, and history. I found it to be very informative.

God bless

I heard the testimony of a man in his late 30’s on Sat about how he had the mindset of the ‘atheist’, for many reasons not the least of which it was repeatedly presented to him in his college experience without balance or even a competing mindset. More than 20 years this was his thinking even though his wife and in-laws were believers. This past year, his eyes were opened. Hallelujah. He is a college professor who has a unique perspective from which to testify. And yet I heard the same frustration in his voice that he could not convince other atheists of the same things he would not believe.

And they will know you by your love. Regardless of how they respond to our words, if we die to self(Rom12:1) and allow ourselves to be filled with the Spirit which also allows the unconditional love of God to flow through us, they will remember. People remember when and who loved them and are drawn to that in time of trouble.

Our discussion this evening at Bible study was, even though we can't force people to decide against their will and neither will God, we can and should continue to grow in our intimacy with God and in our understanding of His great and mighty attributes so that our consistent offering of a loving, helpful, nothing expected in return, attitude can change their hearts. And our prayers for these lost souls are not unheard. What better place for their names to be laid than at the foot of the Throne of the Author and Finisher of our Faith.

Just my humble opinion at this early hour of the morning.

Wow, what a testimony. Do you still refer to yourself as a Calvinist? Or a Calvinist Christian?

Not an attempt at a debate, I just have opportunity to engage so few ‘former’ Calvinists I wonder what was the tipping point?

I already have BP issues, I just try to stay away from those discussion boards.

No, I’m not a Calvinist anything. My wife and I are independent Apostolic, not affiliated with any organizations, although there are a couple that come quickly to mind that we share doctrinal foundation with: The Assemblies of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the United Pentecostal Church International.

My wife was angry with me the first time I went to an Apostolic church service (1981), and refused to go along. I felt it was very moving, but wasn’t willing to go back, since I didn’t want to ‘make waves’ with my pretty wife. But, by 82 the farm economy was in the pits, and I was invited back to that church. My wife agreed to go this time, and did seem to be somewhat comfortable visiting. Nevertheless, we contiued attending our Calvinist church, all the while realizing the there was something missing. Another three months passed before we went back, this time my wife and I realized that we weren’t born again the Bible way, and needed that experience. She was filled with the Holy Ghost a week before me, and proceeded to witness of it immediately. Quite a change for a city girl, who enjoyed bar hopping with her girlfriends before I met her.

I’d had the ‘something’s missing’ feeling off and on, probably since I was middle schooler. Looking back, I can see why many denominations, including the Calvinist ones, tend to avoid the book of Acts. The conversion stories found there are not duplicated in those denominations.

**I already have BP issues**

British Petroleum?? LOL
Baptism? Well, I’d be glad to discuss it with you if you desire sometime.

Lord bless

Blood Pressure, and some of these threads, well just reading the insanity can make my blood boil. I have a, sensitivity to one who calls themselves a Calvinist.

Nothing, no one, no thing, should be needed to stand between you and Christ. It is a barrier to keep their distance. They don't have to work out their,own salvation, Mr Calvin has already done it for them. I'm pretty sure when I read my Bible that sanctification comes not from studying Calvin's theories, but by getting up close and personal and intimate with God, Himself through His Son Jesus because of the ultimate sacrifice He made so that I might have that opportunity.

I'm thinking I don't need Jesus if I'm using Calvin. That is the extent to which some go to justify the doctrine of Calvin. He wasn't exactly a squeaky clean, blameless living out Titus, Christ centered believer. At least all these years later it seems that way. I'm so glad that I am only responsible for my own sanctification. And just like Calvin I will stand before the Mercy seat one day.
Sorry, It isn't just Calvin, I don't have a problem with people reading other writings, but when they put those above the scripture, I get crazy. If you believe what he says make it your own. There isn't a patent on that thought process.
Ok, enough hobby horse. The only affiliation I need is a personal, intimate relationship with Jesus. I'd kinda like to go ‘home’ like Enoch did. Or at least know Jesus well enough that He would invite me to come in the back door of heaven. Only best friends can come in the back door.
Have a great week.

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