Replies

From the article: One early LDS apostle, Parley P. Pratt, took a different public-relations approach, Givens said. In tracts and debates, Pratt unabashedly proclaimed the distinct doctrines of the church such as man’s deification and God’s embodiment, Givens said. Pratt was trying to get the critics to engage the new faith’s theological claims. “I’ve always admired his pluck,” said Givens, whose biography of Pratt, co-written with Matthew Grow, will be published next year. “Pratt’s attitude seemed to be Christendom was a ship about to sink and Mormonism had the lifeboats,” Givens said. Pratt resisted the impulse of most Mormons to head back to the foundering ship. “Where Mormonism will steer its boat in the 21st century is not yet clear.”

So Givens admires the "pluck" of the brother of Mitt Romney's g-g-grandfather, eh? The one who not only said Christianity was a sinking ship, but who claimed:

"The false and corrupt institutions, and still more corrupt practices of `Christendom,' have had a downward tendency in the generations of man for many centuries...The overthrow of those ancient degenerate races is a type of that which now awaits the nations call `Christian,' or in other words, `the great whore that sitteth upon many waters" (Key to the Science of Theology, 1938 ed., pg.106).

Wow! (any other "compliments," oh Lds "apostles"?)

From the article: Givens, a Mormon, traced the faith’s difficulty getting its theology taken seriously through three periods of its history, beginning with the church’s early decades when founder Joseph Smith was denounced as a fraud and the Book of Mormon as a forgery.

Imagine that. Convicted 1820s "glasslooker" in a court of law [glasslookers would con others by pretending to unearth buried treasures; therefore, the culture of the times needed to make it illegal and take action].

You can see Smith's involvement in these kind of things here...and how his whole family was involved...be sure to click on the original articles for more detail:

JOSEPH SMITH, JR: Founder and first "Prophet, Seer, and Revelator" (1805-1844)

JOSEPH SMITH’S INVOLVEMENT WITH MAGIC, MASONRY, AND THE OCCULT

GOD-MEN AND SPIRITUAL VEGETABLES: The Occult Worldview of Mormonism

Early Mormonism and the Magic World View

Those troublesome Buddhists!

The Mormon religion has grown about as much as it can while still embracing Joseph Smith’s golden plate fairytale. Entering mainstream Christianity will involve rejecting the BOM and embracing God’s Word, the Holy Bible. Other religious organizations that started as cults have rejected their history and embraced the historic Chrisitan faith.

My personal feeling is that if the LDS church did so, they’d see an explosion in membership as many people admire their zeal, but also realize that it is (at the present time) misplaced.

Probably because they have a man-made religion, hundreds of thousands of gods, and all kinds of anachronisms (the planet Kolob, horses, food and crops that could not and did not exist in our hemisphere, etc.) in their man-made religion to render their religion a house of cards.

How anyone with any sense of historical accuracy could possibly believe these things, I find incredible.

From the article: Givens, a Mormon, traced the faith’s difficulty getting its theology taken seriously through three periods of its history, beginning with the church’s early decades when founder Joseph Smith was denounced as a fraud and the Book of Mormon as a forgery. His survey continued through the latter half of the 19th century, when Mormons were dismissed as subhuman because of the practice of plural marriage...

As for Givens saying that "Mormons were dismissed as subhuman because of the practice of plural marriage," keep in mind that it was a direct attack upon the institution of marriage.

It led to the Republicans declaring it would tackle the "twin relics of barbarism" (polygamy & slavery) in 1856. And Mormons indeed attacked monogamy:

One early Mormon, Benjamin F. Johnson, recalled that Joseph Smith taught him that plural marriage was the only means by which prostitution could be eliminated. (B. Carmon Hardy, Solemn Covenant, p. 16)

So--not from a personal perspective necessarily (within the household) but from a Joseph Smith policy perspective--Johnson's remembrance shows that a true purpose of plurality (not the only one) was in effect to have an "in-house" prostitute. How base is that for 19th LDS to have embraced that vantage point? Hardy cited other LDS who thought that mass polygamy would "eliminate sexual wickedness" and LDS general authority/legislator, William Gibson, who after-the-fact claimed to have voted against the Manifesto putting the brakes on polygamy, called it "the best antidote to sexual sin." (Solemn Covenant, p. 145, citing William Gibson, who was quoted in "Polygamous Issues," DN, March 28, 1896.)

Hardy writes: "The need for prostitution...was seized on by Mormons as evidence that monogamy was manifestly an incorrect system of marriage...From the 1850s until the end of the century, Mormon writers and speakers struck at what they considered their detractors' hypocrisy for criticizing Mormon marriage when, as the First Presidency affirmed in 1886, adultery and prostitution were the consequences of the monogamic arrangement.... (Solemn Covenant, p. 89, citing "An Epistle of the First Presidency..." March 1886, Messages 3:68...Hardy cites in the same footnote about 8 other sources from Lds "apostles" and "prophets" Heber C. Kimball to Brigham Young to John Taylor to George Q. Cannon to apostle Erasmus Snow).

So there ya go! The embracing of polygamy naturally led to an elitist position where polygamists looked down upon, frowned upon, and even openly dismissed or criticized "monogamy!" When you have an LDS "prophet" in 1886 claiming that adultery and prostitution were the consequences of monogamy, that's a major, major problem!!! Hardy devotes a full chapter in his book to how 19th century LDS regarded polygamy as sexually superior--not for erotic or orgy reasons--but for what they regarded was the "opposite"--associating prostitution and the resulting ill-health with monogamy, etc.

Mormons rightfully got behind Prop 8 a few years ago...but they can't now have their cake and eat it, too. They can't conclude that homosexual marriage is a direct attack upon monogamy and the institution of marriage, but not recognize that institutionalizing polygamy doesn't have the same effect.

"...while almost everyone else dislikes Mormons.”

They do more harm than good with rhetoric like this. Constantly portraying mormons as victims because of who they are, not what they believe.

What I've seen in my wife's ward is that the mormons tend to segregate themselves from the rest of the community because they believe just this kind of tripe that's fed to them through various sources.

I haven't met anyone yet who doesn't like the person who is a mormon, unless their behavior or actions demanded it. The people themselves are admired to a fault by many, in spite of their religion.

Just because someone doesn't like the religious system they follow, doesn't mean they "dislike mormons" (the individuals).

From the article: “Mormons were perfectly happy to play by the rules that had been inaugurated by their detractors and opponents,” Givens said. “They have played defense.”

Give me a break.

Too many Mormons try to "begin from another position" in their dialogues with people of other faith that doesn't "help" the Mormon's oft "starting point" of "Woe is me, I'm the 'persecuted and oppressed' one."

When, in fact, as Lds open their "trenchcoats" to show you what's underneath, we all see their 180-year history of "naked beliefs" of labeling ALL Christians as...
..."false" believers;
...that ONLY the Mormons constitute the supposed "true & living" church -- implying the rest of us are false & dead.

This is where true Christians of the historic faith need to distinguish between the civil tone (I love conversing with Mormons, because usually their tone is "easy" on the ears)...
...versus the content of what either they say, or their tithing $ goes on to do worldwide, which is, namely to slander the historic Christian church!!!

Hence, this is why Givens has to resort in this article talks about Mormon "schizophrenia" (his word). Indeed, a true "dichotomy" exists. Mormons are trained to be "nice." They will often say to your face, or online, that they NEVER "tear down, belittle, or bash" other beliefs. And that actually might be true of many of them via their vocal chords; but NOT via their wallets and bank accounts!!! Their tithing $ goes to:
Official church mag articles & curricula;
Web site content;
Brochures & pamphlets;
Books
Translations of their "scriptures";
multi-media productions;
...which have ALL labeled Catholics, Protestants, & Orthodox as:
..."the church of Satan" per the Book of Mormon;
...100% creedally abominable -- with nary a single creed that honors God per the Pearl of Great Price;
...a false & dead church per Doctrine & Covenants;
...a 100% "apostate" church per Mormon Doctrine;
...lacking all authority;
..."corrupt" professors -- ALL of us -- per the Pearl of Great Price;
...not worthy of joining -- NONE of us -- per the Pearl of Great Price; etc.

Lds are trained from the get-go, especially their Lds missionaries, to always link the so-called "universal apostasy" with what they call "the restoration." [Note: Everybody except Jesus' apostle, John, who supposedly has NEVER died; along with some "Nephite" disciples...who supposedly also NEVER died...anybody get any text messages from any of these guys???] The "Mormon ground zero" for any interfaith discussion MUST be that they evaluate every Christian denomination through the eyes that we are "apostates."

How does that reality transpire? Well, there can be no "restoration" unless something (the original church) was practically totally lost. The Mormon founder needed to take a scorched-earth approach to Christians, otherwise he -- and his restoration -- was 100% superflous. Either he was unnecessary, or the Christian church was...so Smith chose the Christian church to be! im. He chose the latter. He essentially tossed all Christians into one gigantic graveyard, and tried to erect a new religion on top of it. Let's face it, if Smith's "diagnosis" of Christians was wrong, that all didn't commit apostasy, then no need existed for him or his restoration-from-scratch. [Even all the Lds Bible verses they come up with on the apostasy (1) proves it wasn't to be "universal"; and (2) actually contradict it...verses like Eph. 3:21 and 1 Tim. 4:1]

People have as much respect for lds geology as they have for man made global warming. People are not stupid, they see a hoax and call it out.

I protest the article's title claim stating that the mormon church "seeks mainstream acceptance". IMO, they demand Christian acceptance while at the same time holding themselves above Christians as having the "only true church".

The mormon church attempts to rob other denominations of members by their worldwide program of sending tens of thousands of missionaries out daily to inform people that the only way to salvation is through membership in and obedience to mormonism.

The mormon church even attempts to rob the dead of other denominations of their faith by their arcane ritual of baptism and confirmation of dead souls into mormonism.

The mormon church "seeks acceptance" by....

Slandering our God as being "once a mortal"
Slandering our Savior as being "brother to Lucifer"
Sandering the Trinity by inventing a polytheistic "godhead"
Slandering the Holy Bible by calling it "imperfectly translated"
Substituting Gethsamane as the "Atonement" that was done on the Cross
Slandering the Cross by substuting as the icon for their buildings a statue made of gold
It isn't "defensiveness" that has left Mormonism in a pickle...it's "offensiveness"!

“Mormons like everyone else,” wrote Robert Putnam and David Campbell in their new book, American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us, “while almost everyone else dislikes Mormons.”

SURE they do!!

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/17#17

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother,
“I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”

And, continuing thru the years, the high ranking leaders of that Organization have done the same!

Joseph Smith continues: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).

Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses, 18:172).

President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127).

James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).

President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).

President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196).

These 'intellectuals' ain't too SMART! “while almost everyone else dislikes
Mormonism.”

From the article: One early LDS apostle, Parley P. Pratt, took a different public-relations approach, Givens said. In tracts and debates, Pratt unabashedly proclaimed the distinct doctrines of the church such as man’s deification and God’s embodiment, Givens said. Pratt was trying to get the critics to engage the new faith’s theological claims. “I’ve always admired his pluck,” said Givens, whose biography of Pratt, co-written with Matthew Grow, will be published next year. “Pratt’s attitude seemed to be Christendom was a ship about to sink..."

Yeah, as this Mormon admires the "pluck" of this early Lds "apostle" (Parley P. Pratt), writing a biography about him...how much will Givens focus on...
...Pratt's dozen wives or so?
...and how one of those pick-up wives was a woman who was never divorced (separated) whom he met as a missionary in the South?
...the whole notoriousness of it was that it led to a jealous husband killing Parley P. Pratt [read about it in a book by Jon Krakauer, Under the Banner of Heaven, a very interesting read]

Oh...and who did Parley Pratt say men and angels are...??? Why he said, they are of the same "race" and same "species" as all the gods!

Hmmm...I can just imagine Lucifer loving it when an "apostle" on earth puts angels in the same camp as "gods" plural.

Anyway, here's Parley P. Pratt's quote:
"Gods, angels, and men are all of
one species,
one race,
one great family,
widely diffused among the planetary systems as colonies, kingdoms, nations, etc.
Source: The Key to the Science of Theology, 1978, p. 21

Hmmm...I wonder if that quote will make Givens' bio of Pratt? Perhaps Givens can then provide more detail about Mormon "theology" that essentially says the Mormon man-gods & man-angels bounce around the universe and thereby arrive on planet earth as essentially aliens.

If you read the Lds church-owned newspaper, the Deseret News, they've been featuring ads this past week on Lds general authorities such as Parley Pratt's brother, Orson Pratt, and B.H. Roberts. The same publishing house has a theological book by Lds "apostle" John Widtsoe originally published in 1915 called Rational Theology.

Widtsoe in that book made the same slandering claim pointed out by Greyfoxx39 in her post...a slander of God that reduced him to be of slime and then mortal origins:

"God and man are of the same race..." (Widtsoe, p. 61)

So here we are. The Mormons are in the middle of a PR crisis and looking for ways to bridge the divide.

So let’s start with the two things that offend all of Christendom:

1. Mormons hold that all other Christian faiths are in a fallen state and therefore dark. As such, Christians are apostates, worshiping in doctrines that are completely defective and at the same time they are Christians of sorts yet wholly inferior to LDS.

2. Mormons compound their error with arrogance veiled behind a happy face telling everyone they are “The One True Faith”.

To be sure, there can be no LDS without the restoration of the Gospel. However they make demand on Christendom of equivalency, “We are too!” attitude or they play spiritual gymnastics and say “We are Christians”, “We believe in Christ”, etc.

Left out of the “We are Christians” statement is the implied message “But you are not”.

Christians simply cannot accept their viewpoint as it demonstrates the arrogance of “Holier than thou” which is offensive to anyone even in the same faith or a “Well ain’t that nice. I never met a changeling before. Don’t think we have anything in common”.

That’s just for starters. When one learns that man can deify oneself it becomes scary if you understand that God demands “Thou shalt have no other idols before me” and odd since God recognizes no other false idols or deities “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”

God has a way of telling us directly and unequivocally
“I am the LORD, and there is no other”.

Again,

“And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me”

Further,
“I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me”.

So I am looking for a particular verse regarding there can be no other God and I find this:

“Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35

“Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39

“See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39

“You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22

“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60

“Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10

“I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6

“Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” Isaiah 44:8

“I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5

“Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.” Isaiah 45:14

“I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18

“Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.” Isaiah 45:21

“I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9

“you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?” John 5:44

” John 10:30 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God” John 17:3

“to the only wise God, Amen.” Romans 16:27

“there is no God but one “ 1 Corinthians 8:4

“Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God” 1 Timothy 1:17

“which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.” 1 Timothy 6:16

“For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” 1 Timothy 2:5

“You believe that God is one . You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.” James 2:19

“the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.” Jude 25

So how is Christianity to reconcile LDS doctrine calling it whole and true when God says “There are no others before me or after me”?

Man cannot raise himself to deity and God really has a problem with the Mormon aspiration of ascension to Godhood.

Seekers of truth,

If you peruse the Free Republic religion forums you will notice a pattern. There's an anti-Mormon group of people here that spends a great deal of their time attacking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. They post regurgitated propaganda on an almost daily basis.

They have a misguided obsession. You can witness many different tactics employed that you might find quite interesting. The straw man argument is a big favorite and is frequently preceded by cherry-picking quotes or other material. After the "quotation" the attacker will misrepresent what has been said or what was meant and then attack their own interpretation.Later they will have the audacity to claim they were "only" quoting our own material.

They will of course insist ad nauseum that they are merely using our sources and are therefore innocent of any deceptive practice. LDS persons have no issue whatsoever having our scriptures or leaders quoted as long as it is presented fairly and accurately. This is rarely (if ever) done.

Another favorite is posting scripture or statements which on their own really present no dilemma. They make something out of nothing while never bringing up a single objection that hasn't been addressed a hundred times before.

You might note a couple of other tactics used to try to antagonize is the use of disrespectful or insulting terms or language and/or pictures. That's a Christlike thing to do right? Yeah I don't think so either. It does speak volumes about them though.

Sometimes they cruise the headlines of the day seeking any story that might be twisted into making the Church look bad. Anything will do, just watch the progression of posts following it and see what I mean.

After reading their posts, I invite you to seek the truth about whatever "issue" they seem to be "revealing" or "exposing". I promise that if you do so with honest intent, the "ahah" moments you will have will be many and frequent. You will start to recognize the tactics employed to cleverly twist and attack and will likely chuckle the more you see. In actuality, there's nothing new here. It's all been addressed many times before.

The latest twist in the anti-Mormon propaganda machine is to actually go to the links provided, but then they cherry pick what they want, then quote and straw man attack that. Clever. It almost appears that they are helping you, the seeker of truth out by doing some footwork for you. Not so much. Don't be insulted, look for yourself. It's not the haystack they want you to think.

Here's a few links to get your started from a different viewpoint. I have found that the vast majority of the "issues" brought up can be found and addressed at http://www.fairlds.org/ but here's more:

http://scriptures.lds.org/
http://www.lds.org
http://www.fairlds.org/
http://www.mormonapologetics.org/
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Main_Page
http://www.lightplanet.com/response/index.html
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDS_Intro.shtml
http://www.answeringantimormons.com/index.htm
http://promormon.blogspot.com/

Now you will likely notice the "you never address our points" posts pop up as usual. All after providing the answers just as you have here.

Sometimes it is claimed that these sites present a needle in a haystack. Far from it. But if you give up before you try you won't know will you?

Will you wear blinders too? Seek truth. Find out for yourself. Want to chat with someone on any topic? A few of these sites provide just that. So do your homework sincere seeker of truth. Listen and read from both "sides". Make up your own mind.

I witness to you of these truths and wish you the best, in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen.