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To: Cronos

I think there’s a bit to be said contrary to both your lines of logic.

In Romans 5:12, a Scripture I and many others have quoted frequently for support, Paul says “death SPREAD” to all.
Interesting word that ‘passed’ or ‘spread’ as the word Paul used, “dielthen” has as a meaning to travel through a country or to passage from one place to another.

Hence Paul is speaking a progressive effect rather like a damaged printing plate continually making copies of its flaws and not something done to each copy individually.

In vs. 14 Paul goes on to say that even those who did NOT sin in the way Adam had were still subject to king death down to the time of Moses.

But then, What IS sin? Paul used the wore “hamartia” which has a literal meaning of “missing” a goal or marked aimed for and was used to describe actions too that failed to meet ethical standards.
“death spread to all men” because none could hit the mark of perfection as Jesus did.

Adam and Eve evidently understood what the consequences of their actions would be for their off-spring, they covered their reproductive parts realizing they could only pass on the death that had entered through Adam.
They had, in effect, killed everyone by their actions just as much as an airline pilot who fails to heed warnings and instructions and takes his charges into the ground.

“Sin is not passed on through “flesh”. Adam we agree was made, “flesh” without sin. Sin nature came about when he “sinned” i.e. performed a sinful ACTION. No genetic changes happened in Genesis 3”

I disagree. Peoples bodies began to wear out after a time, for Adam a very long time, and that time became less and less as that original vigor of perfection was lost.

Noah was born just decades after Adam died yet look at he drop in human life spans, the errors in the original copy were not being corrected but are increasing like a damaged printing plate making copies that are likewise damaged. It wasn’t that their sin was greater but that the flesh was weakening. Sin changed their fleshly inheritance too.

Further as you said,

“Sin nature is not “fleshy” — it’s not just that Adam’s body, genetics was given the sin-nature, we humans are more than just water and flesh. Similarly, even demons are sinners, but they have no “flesh”. “

In deed we are more than “just flesh and water” which would explain why no amount of genetic tinkering or good clean living can overcome the effects of our inheritance of imperfection.

“..death spread to all men because they had all sinned”.

The example of those angels that made themselves ‘demons” by sinning brought these questions to my mind:

What effect did their sin have upon their heavenly bodies?
The Bible is silent.

Can Christ sacrifice act as a ransom for these ‘demons’.
The Bible indicates No.

Since these non-fleshly creatures do not reproduce can they claim they inherited imperfection?
Again, the Bible indicates No.

But they DO miss the mark, sin, and suffer the consequences.


7,019 posted on 01/12/2011 9:32:19 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change
Romans 5:12
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
very good points. I need to study them and scripture and pray a little before I "think" :-P
7,020 posted on 01/13/2011 2:35:23 AM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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