First, thank you for a thoughtful response. It is cogent posts like this that make my participation in this thread a joy.
Yes, that is a correct summary. Works done in obedience of law (Jewish or otherwise) or for social gain (e.g. "to boast", Eph.2:9), or for wages, do not count toward salvation, even though they can contribute to it indirectly by avoiding sin in cases where sin is also a crime. Works of faith otherwise known as works of love or works of charity, often referred to by the Scripture as "good works" have a direct salvific effect.
other texts do not specify works of the law, but broadly refers to works, which it sets in contrast to faith
Well, that would not be surprising given that works are not exactly the same as faith, even though passages like Hebrews 11 or James 2 explain that at least true faith is inseparable from good works. But let us see what examples you cite.
Rm. 7:12
... simply says that the law is just and good, I don't see any reference to works in general here. It is our presumption that a law is always aiming at something good, or at forbidding something bad, is it not?
Gal. 3:21
Let me quote that passage:
[21] Was the law then against the promises of God? God forbid. For if there had been a law given which could give life, verily justice should have been by the law. [22] But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise, by the faith of Jesus Christ, might be given to them that believe. [23] But before the faith came, we were kept under the law shut up, unto that faith which was to be revealed. [24] Wherefore the law was our pedagogue in Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But after the faith is come, we are no longer under a pedagogue.Here law in its pedagogical value is contrasted to faith. I don't see good works being contrasted to faith.
while the “righteousness of the law” is never abrogated. (Rm. 8:4)
Indeed, see my comment above. The work of the law are not salvific, that is one obeying the law simply because it is law may be avoiding certain sins, but other than that he is not advancing his sanctification and therefore is not advancing his salvation. He simply does, like the unfaithful servant, "what is required of him" (Luke 17:7-10).
I do not see an example of "other texts do not specify works of the law, but broadly refers to works, which it sets in contrast to faith" anywhere here.
The key difference as I see it between this and what Catholicism teaches is that it is not by any “merit of works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,” (Titus 3:5) not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. (2Tim. 1:9)
How is that not what Catholicism teaches? Christ did not indeed to to the Cross because we were righteous or law-abiding. He did so because He is God and God loves us and all He creates. None of that negates the need for us to love God back, and indeed "faith without works is dead" (James 2:17-26), and we must "excel in good works" (Titus 3:8, the same passage that reiterates that "works of justice do not save us" (one you cite, verse 5).
You also cite 2Tim. 1:9 and, of course there, as well, the same thought is expressed: that while God saved us and, in that case, gave some of us the calling of episcopacy, "according to his own purpose and grace", we must have a response: "labour with the gospel, according to the power of God" and "stir up the grace of God which is in [us]", "[in the] spirit of power, and of love, and of sobriety" (2 Tim 1:6-9).
So no, I do not see a prooftext of faith and good works being "either one or the other". Each passage you cite affirms the Catholic teaching: The sovereign purpose of God is love for us; works of the law (or works of justice) do not have a salvific merit; works of faith or good works done in the spirit of love are a necessary part of our response to grace. "By works faith [is] made perfect" (James 2:22).
your statement cannot necessarily say is that Protestant theology leads one to eternal damnation
Of course, and as you rightly note, that is not the Catholic position at all. Man can be sanctified by the diligent study of the scripture, and therefore can be saved. what your statement implies is that Catholicism manifests a greater degree of grace, which is her stance, while the multitudes of those who left Catholicism for Evangelical churches (which has far more been the case than the opposite), testifies otherwise
Indeed. The fullness of faith is inthe Catholic faith. As I stated many times, one who seriously and attentively studies the Hoyl Scripture will perhaps not become a Roman Rite Catholic (for that one would also need certain esthetic preference), and perhaps he would not even become formally a Catholic but rather join an Eastern Orthodox Church. But even in becoming Orthodox rather than formally Catholic he will embrace the Catholic theology and most congenial to him Catholic praxis.
What do the numbers of conversions mean? Not much. In 4c the Christendom was overwhelmingly Arian. Today, the Protestant, especially Evangelical theology caters very well to the mentality of a middle class American. I am surpised anyone in the Western world, except few nuts like me, remains Catholic, yet in my Church it is standing room only unless you come early, and the faithful spill over to the narthex on holidays. We are doing amazingly well for a medieval institution.
This is not the post of Daniel’s I was refering to. I will try and find it though.
Thus while “works of the law” are disallowed as salvific, Rome attributes salvific merit to works of faith
First, thank you for a thoughtful response. It is cogent posts like this that make my participation in this thread a joy.
Some disagree.
Yes, that is a correct summary. Works done in obedience of law (Jewish or otherwise) or for social gain (e.g. "to boast", Eph.2:9), or for wages, do not count toward salvation, even though they can contribute to it indirectly by avoiding sin in cases where sin is also a crime. Works of faith otherwise known as works of love or works of charity, often referred to by the Scripture as "good works" have a direct salvific effect.
You are introducing a contrast Paul is not making, which is clearly not that of disallowing works done out of a certain motive or quality versus works of faith, but the contrast is works meriting justification, that believers have "truly merited eternal life," versus righteousness being imputed by faith. The argument we have is not that faith must be of a kind that works, but that works (nor faith) do not merit eternal life. Rather, justification is by imputed righteousness — Christ works being the effective cause — procured through a kind of God-given faith that will bring forth fruit unto practical holiness.
As for boasting, if believers are accounted to have "truly merited eternal life" by those “very works which have been done in God,” then it is a wage, even if by grace, and even those works done under the law work are by grace, and they who are under that system work by faith that God will justify them on account of their merits. But as in election, if justification is through faith “by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” (Rm. 11:6) “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” (Rm. 4:4,5)
However, apart from eternal life, which is a wholly unmerited gift, (Rm. 6:23) works done in faith do have a reward, (Mt. 10:41; 1Cor. 3:14; 9:17) and in contrast to salvation, Paul could “boast” of what he had done, in seeking to turn the Corinthians back to faith, (2Cor. 11:10) and declare how he laboured more abundantly than the other apostles out of love for God, by the grace of God which was with him. (1Cor. 15:10)
other texts do not specify works of the law, but broadly refers to works, which it sets in contrast to faith
let us see what examples you cite.
... simply says that the law is just and good, I don't see any reference to works in general here. It is our presumption that a law is always aiming at something good, or at forbidding something bad, is it not?
Here law in its pedagogical value is contrasted to faith. I don't see good works being contrasted to faith.
Your editing of my response loses the argument. What i said in context was,
Thus while “works of the law” are disallowed as salvific, Rome attributes salvific merit to works of faith. This implies that the reason for the use of the term “works of the law” in such places as Romans 4 is to place such in contrast to “works of faith.” However, other texts do not specify works of the law, but broadly refers to works, which it sets in contrast to faith. And the law being holy just and good, (Rm. 7:12) “if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law,” (Gal. 3:21) while the “righteousness of the law” is never abrogated. (Rm. 8:4)
The argument goes on (below) to provide examples, while Rm. 7:12 and Gal. 3:21 are obviously not referenced as contrasting works versus grace but they are used to argue that if there was a way to merit eternal life by works then it would have been by the law, in which one has faith that God will justify him on account of his works-righteousness. The often-used term “works of the law” in Paul's teaching is clearly NOT to disallow “works of the law” in contrast to “works of faith” as regards to the instrumental means of justification, but to contrast “works” versus “grace through faith.” I went on to ref Titus 3:5 and 2Tim. 1:9 in that regard, to which Eph. 2:9,10 can be added, which do not mention works of the law,” but which contrast you misconstrue.
while the “righteousness of the law” is never abrogated. (Rm. 8:4)
Indeed, see my comment above. The work of the law are not salvific, that is one obeying the law simply because it is law may be avoiding certain sins, but other than that he is not advancing his sanctification and therefore is not advancing his salvation. He simply does, like the unfaithful servant, "what is required of him" (Luke 17:7-10).
The ref to “righteousness of the law” not being abrogated follows the above point as to the quality of the law, and again the argument by Paul is not one type of works versus another; rather he indiscriminately disallows “works of righteousness” as the basis for justification, in contrast to establishing that faith is counted for righteousness, though it must be a kind of faith that works, which it is elsewhere qualified as being.
I do not see an example of "other texts do not specify works of the law, but broadly refers to works, which it sets in contrast to faith" anywhere here.
The next paragraph was part of the argument and gave two examples.
The key difference as I see it between this and what Catholicism teaches is that it is not by any “merit of works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,” (Titus 3:5) not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. (2Tim. 1:9)
How is that not what Catholicism teaches?
Because Rome teaches that the good works that he performs by the grace truly merit the attainment of eternal life itself, (Trent, Canon 32) that “eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, and as a reward promised by God himself, to be faithfully given to their good works and merits,” (Trent, Chapter XVI; The fruits of justification, that is, the merit of good works, and the nature of that merit) that believers “have truly merited eternal life” “by those very works which have been done in God,” (ibid, Decree on justification), Thus you must attempt to restrict “works of righteousness” “not of works,” “not according to our works,” and “to him that worketh not,” to only applying to a certain kind of works, contrasting that with “works of faith,” while the Biblical contrast is broadly between works of any kind versus faith as the instrumental means of justification by the imputed righteousness of Christ.
Christ did not indeed [need to go] to to the Cross because we were righteous or law-abiding. He did so because He is God and God loves us and all He creates.
Christ did not got the cross simply because He is loving, but because He is holy and just, and man is utterly unable to merit eternal life with Him or escape his just and eternal damnation in Hell-fire, and thus the need for the atonement. "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. " (Romans 3:25-26)
None of that negates the need for us to love God back, and indeed "faith without works is dead" (James 2:17-26), and we must "excel in good works" (Titus 3:8, the same passage that reiterates that "works of justice do not save us" (one you cite, verse 5).
That is not the issue. As has been established, the classic Protestant doctrine of sola fide preaches that the kind of faith that is salvific is one that shows forth things which accompany salvation, "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." (Romans 2:13) Not because they merit it, but because that is the character of saving faith, the issue being that a soul is justified by imputed righteousness upon believing, with a faith that will follow the One whose justified them by His blood and righteousness.
You also cite 2Tim. 1:9 and, of course there, as well, the same thought is expressed: that while God saved us and, in that case, gave some of us the calling of episcopacy, "according to his own purpose and grace", we must have a response: "labour with the gospel, according to the power of God" and "stir up the grace of God which is in [us]", "[in the] spirit of power, and of love, and of sobriety" (2 Tim 1:6-9).
You left out, “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,” as what is at issue is that salvation is “not according to our works,” but by pure grace, not grace to merit salvation, but that one is justified by imputed righteousness through a kind of faith that confesses Jesus is Lord.
So no, I do not see a prooftext of faith and good works being "either one or the other".
As concerns what the basis for justification is, that should be obvious.
Each passage you cite affirms the Catholic teaching: The sovereign purpose of God is love for us; works of the law (or works of justice) do not have a salvific merit; works of faith or good works done in the spirit of love are a necessary part of our response to grace.
To which you should have said, “and which merit eternal life.” as that is Rome's false gospel, upon which a vast system is built. Each passage i cite does not affirm Catholic teaching that believers are accounted to have "truly merited eternal life" by those “very works which have been done in God,” but again they deny that any work except that of the Lord Jesus Christ atones for sin and merits salvation, and is appropriated by faith.
"By works faith [is] made perfect" (James 2:22).
Or by works faith perfected. (byG1537 worksG2041 was faithG4102 made perfect?G5048) An inert type faith is dead. “How that by works a man is justified,” (Ja. 2:24) is that it is not by a kind of faith which is alone but one which is confession in nature. In Rm. 4, Paul is dealing with what exactly the basis for justification is, and clearly states that it is “not by works of righteousness,” “to him that worketh not but believeth,””by grace through faith, not of works,” and thus Abraham was justified by faith in Gn. 15:6.
Yet as regards the nature of saving faith, Paul himself states, “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” (Rm. 10:9,10) Thus it is a confessional type faith that is salvific. And this confession can be by mouth as well as by “body language” such as in baptism.
But what if the person is mute, and immobilized, and all he/she can do is think? Thus we have the belief in “baptism by desire,” and if that can be the case, then justification does not require an actual acting out to be appropriated, though a work may be the occasion when faith is realized, yet if one is justified in heart then it will be expressed when able, and so a salvific faith is one that will work. To refuse to do so, or to willfully act contrary to it, is a denial of faith. (Mt. 10:32; 1Tim. 5:8; 2Tim. 2:12,13)
As for James, he is dealing with souls who suppose that a kind of faith is salvific which professes “Jesus is Lord” but does not evidence it, yet has Abraham's justification being in Gn. 22, which would be a contradiction of both Moses and Paul if he meant that Abraham was not a saved soul until he was willing to offer up Isaac. It is thus typically concluded that this act justified Abraham as one justified, confirming the virile nature of his faith, “fulfilling” it as true. More on this below.
However, even if we understand James teaching that Abraham's justification did not actually occur until Gn. 22, so that Gn. 15:6 was more like a promise and not a present reality, and thus justification does not occur until such an expression of faith as Abraham or Rahab made, which understanding i see as the only other alternative, yet what James does not say is that such works of faith merit eternal life, and or that the latter was any kind of deserved reward for his works , which Rome renders them to be.
your statement cannot necessarily say is that Protestant theology leads one to eternal damnation
Man can be sanctified by the diligent study of the scripture, and therefore can be saved. what your statement implies is that Catholicism manifests a greater degree of grace, which is her stance, while the multitudes of those who left Catholicism for Evangelical churches (which has far more been the case than the opposite), testifies otherwise
Souls are not saved on the basis of their own holiness, but faith which is imputed for righteousness, but “faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Rm. 10:17)
Indeed. The fullness of faith is inthe Catholic faith.
That is not what what i said, but that the evidence shows a poorer spirituality among Roman Catholics than evangelicals, despite the general declension of faith overall in the West.
As I stated many times, one who seriously and attentively studies the Hoyl Scripture will perhaps not become a Roman Rite Catholic ..and perhaps he would..rather join an Eastern Orthodox Church. But even in becoming Orthodox rather than formally Catholic he will embrace the Catholic theology and most congenial to him Catholic praxis.
This would admit that a modern day Berean would likely not become an Roman Catholic, yet they supposedly have the fullness of the faith, and which claim relies rests upon their own “infallible” self-proclamation.
What do the numbers of conversions mean? Not much. In 4c the Christendom was overwhelmingly Arian.
My statement was in reference to Rome's assertion that Catholicism manifests a greater degree of grace, but based on what research i have, converts to evangelical churches most typically usually do not primarily site doctrinal issues, but relational, with 90% of former Roman Catholics saying it was a spiritual search for a more direct, personal experience with God was the main reason that brought their conversion.
And as most first realized this relationship due to a personal conversion as a result of conviction and faith in Christ to save them as lost sinners, rather than being treated as Christians due to their infant baptism(typically), their faith is far less centered on a particular church than one their relationship with Christ, and they find fellowship that transcends denomination with those who had the same conversion.