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To: boatbums; metmom; RnMomof7; presently no screen name
this in no way has ever meant that the leadership of the church can confect entire doctrines our of whole cloth and require obedience and adherence to them

True; the Church is authorized by God to teach the truth, whether contained in the scripture or not, but it is not authorized to teach stuff "out of the whole cloth", that is contradictory to the Holy Tradition or the Holy Scripture. So the Church doesn't.

Which stands in contrast with Protestantism that invented doctrines expressly denied in the Scripture and unconnected to the Holy Tradition, such as anticlericalism and the doctrine of salvation by faith alone. There are traditions of men condemned in Mark 7:5-8: theories that give the countless "ministers" something to do, invented for their comfort and for nothing else.

I wonder why you all are SO adverse to the idea that Scripture is the sole source for doctrines of the faith seeing as how you constantly assert that nothing the "Church" teaches is contrary to Scripture anyway.

I am adverse to the former because it contradicts the scripture. I assert that the Church teaches nothing that contradicts the scripture for the same reason: that the scripture is an accurate reflection of the Apostolic faith any anything that contradicts it contradicts the Apostolic faith and therefore is of the devil.

hundreds of Scriptures that say it is by faith alone that we are saved

Scripture never "obliterates" scripture. What kind of faith in Jesus Christ your Savior do you have if you think that He taught in one place something that needed obliterating in another? The scripture says once, "by works a man is justified; and not by faith only" (James 2:24); it is in context, an entire paragraph is spent on that idea, and so that is the truth, and you if obey the scripture so much, obey this one.

There is not a single verse that teaches that we are saved by faith alone. Not one. Stop pretending there is one let alone "hundreds". This is why the credibility of the Prtestants charlatans is at zero: you claim to know the scripture, but you make naked false statements like that and not bring even one of these supposedly "hundred" "obliterating" verses up. You have no shame.

5,158 posted on 12/11/2010 1:19:20 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex; boatbums; Grizzled Bear; RnMomof7; presently no screen name; 1000 silverlings; ...
True; the Church is authorized by God to teach the truth, whether contained in the scripture or not, but it is not authorized to teach stuff "out of the whole cloth", that is contradictory to the Holy Tradition or the Holy Scripture.

If it's not found in Scripture, it's veracity is up for grabs. It's going to take a lot more than the writings of anyone whose other works that happened long after the fact and are considered heretical.

Extra-Biblical writings just don't hold much merit if they don't have solid Scriptural support.

They may be interesting as casual reading as an intellectual exercise, but if they're not Scripture the Catholic church is in a pretty weak position to criticize and condemn someone for being skeptical of their truthfulness.

Lots of other denominations claim extra-Biblical revelation to support their doctrine and yet they are considered cults for that. I am unconvinced that the Catholic church is the exception.

5,169 posted on 12/11/2010 2:45:40 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: annalex; metmom
Scripture never "obliterates" scripture. What kind of faith in Jesus Christ your Savior do you have if you think that He taught in one place something that needed obliterating in another? The scripture says once, "by works a man is justified; and not by faith only" (James 2:24); it is in context, an entire paragraph is spent on that idea, and so that is the truth, and you if obey the scripture so much, obey this one. There is not a single verse that teaches that we are saved by faith alone. Not one. Stop pretending there is one let alone "hundreds". This is why the credibility of the Prtestants charlatans is at zero: you claim to know the scripture, but you make naked false statements like that and not bring even one of these supposedly "hundred" "obliterating" verses up. You have no shame.

It becomes quite apparent to anyone who is truly a student of Scripture that your claims to "know" it are what is "nakedly false". I did not quote the verses that contradict your misreading of the context of verses in James because I already have on this thread as have many others, plus I think you are already aware of those I am speaking of. It is ironically humorous that you contend "not one" teaches we are saved by faith apart from works and state that if it did it would "obliterate" other Scripture. We know that God is the author of it and God would not contradict himself, so tell me how you can read in one place that we are saved by faith alone and in another you claim we are saved by faith AND works? Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps it is your own misreading of certain verses accompanied with a preconceived doctrine that renders you unable to see the true meaning of those verses?

You assert that the Catholic Church teaches nothing contrary to Scripture and when the numerous ones are pointed out on this thread and others you lash back with rationalized doublespeak to castigate whoever dared to make the claim. This is not the right way to answer in a debate. I can easily make the claim that the Catholic Church has repeatedly invented doctrines that are denied in the Scripture, yet because you contend that they are "Holy Tradition" it ceases to matter that Scripture is contradicted by them. Who has no shame???

5,180 posted on 12/11/2010 9:34:32 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: annalex; metmom

Additionally, I said your assertion of what James 2 says obliterates other Scripture passages. I did not say that Scripture obliterates other Scripture. If you wish to debate, at least get what the other person says correct.


5,181 posted on 12/11/2010 9:43:17 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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