In Christ Alone (Happy reformation day)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExnTlIM5QgE ^ | Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;

[RnMomof7]

In Christ Alone lyrics

Songwriters: Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;

In Christ alone my hope is found He is my light, my strength, my song This Cornerstone, this solid ground Firm through the fiercest drought and storm

What heights of love, what depths of peace When fears are stilled, when strivings cease My Comforter, my All in All Here in the love of Christ I stand

In Christ alone, who took on flesh Fullness of God in helpless Babe This gift of love and righteousness Scorned by the ones He came to save

?Til on that cross as Jesus died The wrath of God was satisfied For every sin on Him was laid Here in the death of Christ I live, I live

There in the ground His body lay Light of the world by darkness slain Then bursting forth in glorious Day Up from the grave He rose again

And as He stands in victory Sin?s curse has lost its grip on me For I am His and He is mine Bought with the precious blood of Christ

[annalex]

the rest of your post is tortured speculation

My post essentially says that in a narrative about death of X, when the narrator describes a woman who is present at that as mother of Y, then you can be sure that woman is not the mother of the one who is dying, X.

Tortured speculation?

[annalex]

As well as in a narrative about visiting the fresh grave of X...

[annalex]

The religiously individualistic mindset of the West since the Renaissance is particularly suited to Protestantism

This is a bit off-target, it seems. Renaissance is something quite antithetical to Protestantism, at least in its glorious Heaven-meets-Earth saints-filled celebratory art and architecture style. No wonder its main engine, Italy, was never in the least interested in Protestantism. I would say that Protestatism catered to the emerging artizan and merchant class, but absence of strong monarchies was actually more pronounced in the European Middle Ages than at the time when Protestantism came on the scene.

Madonna and Child with Saints

Andrea da Firenze

1360-62
Wood
Santa Maria del Carmine, Florence

Suited to Protestantism?

[annalex]

pagan rituals, idol worship

We don't have them.

Priesthood which Christ ended

He ended one, started another.

If then perfection was by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchisedech, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? (Hebrews 7:11)

This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me. (Luke 22:19)

Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophesy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood. (1 Tim. 4:14))

traditions taught by men

hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. (2 Thessalonians 2:14)

praying to the departed

With them and for them.

They were stoned, they were cut asunder, they were tempted, they were put to death by the sword, they wandered about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being in want, distressed, afflicted: [38] Of whom the world was not worthy; wandering in deserts, in mountains, and in dens, and in caves of the earth. [39] And all these being approved by the testimony of faith, received not the promise; [40] God providing some better thing for us, that they should not be perfected without us. [1] And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us: [2] Looking on Jesus, the author and finisher of faith, who having joy set before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and now sitteth on the right hand of the throne of God (Hebrews 11-12)

he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. (Rev. 8:3)

Mary worship

Mary is not God so we don't worship her. We ask for her prayers.

Thank you very much for trying. If you have questions, don't hesitate to ask.

[Kolokotronis]

Alex, read what I wrote...since the Renaissance, not on account of the Renaissance!

[caww]

You can be assured Annalex if I had questions about the catholic faith I would not seek your resources for clarification, or for that matter opinion of...For Pulling scripture out of context to support ones beliefs, and these dictated by leaders of a church organization is common to many who have strayed from the centrality of Christ Jesus.

The scriptures you have presented here have many times been explained for the truth they represent and the correct context in which they are intended...for you...but to no avail as you appear unable to be receptive to the truth unless it is sanctioned by your church first and foremost....as in the past.

Some people look for a church...others for the Christ and find the fellowship of believers with Christ as the head of that body....... Some cannot believe the truth apart from their church....others know the truth and their church reflects that truth.

What is truth? Christ and the centrality of all there is about Him.

[caww]

Suited to Protestantism?

Not for my taste. Not at all. Though some might appreciate the artists of that time I’d rather hang works of my own family.

[boatbums]

What is there to explain? "God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting". We all agree on that

I would like to remind you of the post that this response addressed. In It you said: "But if I ask you to explain, for example, James 2:24, or John 6:54, you will do exactly what I say you do: "by explaining that it does not really say what it does".

So when I asked you to explain John 3:16 you gave your answer of what you think it means yet I know that that is not what your religion really DOES teach. If it did, we would not be having these disagreements about faith alone vs. faith and works for salvation. Do you really believe, as John 3:16 says, that we HAVE eternal life by believing in Jesus Christ? Because I think some additional explaining will have to be done and it will end up being "it doesn't really say what it does". Right?

[kosta50]

caww to annalex: Pulling scripture out of context to support ones beliefs

As if individual Protestants don't do the same thing? What hypocrisy!

and these dictated by leaders of a church organization is common to many who have strayed from the centrality of Christ Jesus

Which is somehow "worse" than dictated by individual private interpretations of any Tom, Dick or Harriette with the Bible in their hands who supposedly, magically, never strayed form the centrality of Christ (according to their own definition)?

[Kolokotronis]

My apologies for my bad formatting in 5099 which casued some confusion!

"I know what Catholics believe about communion and I disagree with it anyway, which I realize is beyond the comprehension of most Catholics."

I think you will find that most Catholics of the Orthodox persuasion understand where you are coming from fully. We're odd that way. We are not, as you have seen here, very "evangelical". You believe what you believe. We believe what we believe. "We have seen the true light; we have received the heavenly Spirit; we have found the true faith, worshiping the undivided Trinity, for the Trinity has saved us." as we chant in the Liturgy. If anyone wants what we have they can have it. If not, that's OK...have another cup of cafe and perhaps a piece of baklava!

"Some people just don't get that I can understand what they're saying and choose not to believe it." Kosta and I do.

"That said, I find plenty of Scriptural support for the conclusion that the elements in communion are and remain simply bread and wine and are representative of Christ, just as they were in the Passover meal. Having them become the LITERAL flesh and blood of Christ violates too many other passages of Scripture and since Scripture doesn't contradict itself, that means that the literal flesh and blood interpretation is wrong."

The belief that the bread and wine on the altar table, through the power of the Holy Spirit, become in some way we do not understand the true Body and Blood of Christ is among the most verifiably ancient beliefs of The Church. Mere antiquity, of course, guarantees nothing. It does mean, however, that the bishops who determined the canon of the NT in the 4th century actually believed it. Why do you suppose they would have canonized scripture which, it appears to you and millions of others, clearly contradicts that fundamental belief? BTW, I can understand questioning the Latin explanations of what happens at the consecration. You know, mysteries are just that, mysteries. And perhaps the less speculation the better about the nature of Divine Mysteries lest in doing so we misunderstand and fall into error.

[kosta50]

BTW, I can understand questioning the Latin explanations of what happens at the consecration. You know, mysteries are just that, mysteries. And perhaps the less speculation the better about the nature of Divine Mysteries lest in doing so we misunderstand and fall into error.

Perhaps if they knew that the word for sacrament in Greek is μυστήριον (mystérion), or a secret, something hidden and inaccessible to human reason, they wouldn't try to explain it rationally. That's why faith (trust) is required without any proof; it can only be accepted, believed and hoped for—blindly.

[metmom]

There are no more mysteries of the faith. They have all been revealed to us now in the person of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 3:1-12 For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles— assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you, how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God’s grace, which was given me by the working of his power. To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things, so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him.

Colossians 1:26-29 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.

If the Catholic church is still in the business of keeping the faith a *mystery* they are working contrary to God's plan.

[metmom]

What I find interesting, just as an observation, is that the Orthodox beliefs seem to be much closer in doctrine to Protestant and yet the reaction to the two is totally different.

We’re heretics for not believing in transubstantitation, you’re not.

Same with much of the teaching on Mary.

It’s very curious and leaves one with some food for thought as to why.

[Kolokotronis]

"What I find interesting, just as an observation, is that the Orthodox beliefs seem to be much closer in doctrine to Protestant...."

I think it's better put to say that Protestant beliefs seem closer to Orthodox beliefs. In some few areas that is true but even there, the differences are vast except perhaps with the Lutherans and the Anglicans. In all honesty, some of what you believe as fundamental doctrine we see as almost completely Roman Catholic. The filioque in the Creed springs to mind.

"We’re heretics for not believing in transubstantitation, you’re not."

mm, it's not a matter of believing in transubstantiation so much as it is a matter of most Protestants rejecting the dogmatic belief that at the consecration the bread and wine on the altar table become the true Body and Blood of Christ. We reject the explanation the Latins use; we also reject that of the Lutherans and the Anglicans. But we certainly completely and dogmatically believe that the bread and wine on the altar table become the true Body and Blood of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. If that runs afoul of the declarations of the Latin Church's local Council of Trent, then by their standards we Orthodox may well be heretics.

"Same with much of the teaching on Mary"

The only teachings on the Most Holy Theotokos we do not share with the Latins is the dogmatic declaration of the Immaculate Conception (which I guess I would expect Protestants to embrace on account of your notions of Original Sin) and that of the Assumption, which we in fact believe but do not believe it is a belief necessary for all Orthodox Christians to embrace on pain of excommunication.

[OLD REGGIE]

the rest of your post is tortured speculation

My post essentially says that in a narrative about death of X, when the narrator describes a woman who is present at that as mother of Y, then you can be sure that woman is not the mother of the one who is dying, X.

Tortured speculation?

I am more convinced than ever that "tortured speculation" was a much too gentle term.

[annalex]

I can explain which Mary was where without any difficulty, because nothign but an ability to read is required for that. For something else, more that just an ability to read is required.

The {Good Thief] had no idea of Perpetual Virginity

That is true, but he knew that it is important to defend the truth known to him.

Would it burst your bubble if I told you I have learned nothing new about Catholic beliefs from our dialogue?

Apparently not, but I do not post for you persoally. The questions you ask are common, many would like to ask them and I appreciate the opportunity to answer.

[OLD REGGIE]

He ended one, started another.

If then perfection was by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchisedech, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? (Hebrews 7:11)

This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me. (Luke 22:19)

Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophesy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood. (1 Tim. 4:14))

I can see no relationship in your claim to the Priesthood begun by Jesus in your first two references (Hebrews 7:11 and Luke 22:19) and only a tortured redefinition of the Greek in the Latin Vulgate and Douay Rheims (1 Timothy 4:14).

For many other translations look here:

1 TIMOTHY 4:14

STRONGS:

4244. presbuterion

a body of eldersOriginal Word: πρεσβυτέριονBR>Transliteration: presbuterion
Phonetic Spelling: (pres-boo-ter'-ee-on
Short Definition: presbytery

[annalex]

this in no way has ever meant that the leadership of the church can confect entire doctrines our of whole cloth and require obedience and adherence to them

True; the Church is authorized by God to teach the truth, whether contained in the scripture or not, but it is not authorized to teach stuff "out of the whole cloth", that is contradictory to the Holy Tradition or the Holy Scripture. So the Church doesn't.

Which stands in contrast with Protestantism that invented doctrines expressly denied in the Scripture and unconnected to the Holy Tradition, such as anticlericalism and the doctrine of salvation by faith alone. There are traditions of men condemned in Mark 7:5-8: theories that give the countless "ministers" something to do, invented for their comfort and for nothing else.

I wonder why you all are SO adverse to the idea that Scripture is the sole source for doctrines of the faith seeing as how you constantly assert that nothing the "Church" teaches is contrary to Scripture anyway.

I am adverse to the former because it contradicts the scripture. I assert that the Church teaches nothing that contradicts the scripture for the same reason: that the scripture is an accurate reflection of the Apostolic faith any anything that contradicts it contradicts the Apostolic faith and therefore is of the devil.

hundreds of Scriptures that say it is by faith alone that we are saved

Scripture never "obliterates" scripture. What kind of faith in Jesus Christ your Savior do you have if you think that He taught in one place something that needed obliterating in another? The scripture says once, "by works a man is justified; and not by faith only" (James 2:24); it is in context, an entire paragraph is spent on that idea, and so that is the truth, and you if obey the scripture so much, obey this one.

There is not a single verse that teaches that we are saved by faith alone. Not one. Stop pretending there is one let alone "hundreds". This is why the credibility of the Prtestants charlatans is at zero: you claim to know the scripture, but you make naked false statements like that and not bring even one of these supposedly "hundred" "obliterating" verses up. You have no shame.

[annalex]

is “it” there in pieces with part of “it” in heaven awaiting the other parts...?

The One Holy Catholic Church consists in three parts. First there is the Church Militant comprising all the faithful from the soul in the pew to the Pope that are living today and therefore are fighting the battle for Christ and against Satan every day.

Second, there is Church Suffering and these are souls currently going through the cleansing torment of the Purgatory. Since they underwent death they are no longer in battle: they cannot will any act, nor even a prayer. They are souls in transition, the new dead enter the Church Suffering and exit it to Heaven at all times. This is the Church that needs out prayers. It is good for everyone to pray for the dead, regardless of whether you think that they are in Hell in Heaven or in Purgatory, even though only those in Purgatory are in need of the prayer. Public prayer for those who died is offered for that reason, even though the public Funeral Mass is restricted to Catholics who died without giving a scandal of apostasy or suicide. Private prayers for all dead are always good and much needed, and a one of the necessry for your salvation good works.

Lastly, there is the Church Triumphant, visibly lead up by Christ in Glory at the right hand of the Father. These are all the saints, canonized an unknown to us, those who lead altogether holy lives and those who were purified through the Purgatiorial flame and thus became holy after their death. This is the Church that won, wants us to joing them in victory and is in prayer for us.

It is good for the struggling Christian on earth to reach out to the Church Triumphant and ask them for prayer and help. You live your life never alone but in the constant communion of Saints in Heaven; they gave you the Holy Scriptures; they gave their lives so that you may believe on Jesus Christ. It is reasonable to learn about them and befriend them: they went on the path to salvation before you, often facing the same battles you are facing. Each Christian should study the lives of the saints, especially those who for some reason are close to you, by way of profession, or common affliction, or because your parents named you after them, or becaue you country is consecrated to them. When not in the Divine Presence at the Eucharist, -- when Christ and all the saints are with you, -- but in the privacy of you home, reflect who your patron saints are, make friends with them and if available obtain holy images of them, and pray with them, and you life will change.

Odigitria (Showing the Way)
Orthodox icon

[33] [It is the saints,] Who by faith conquered kingdoms, wrought justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, [34] Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, recovered strength from weakness, became valiant in battle, put to flight the armies of foreigners: [35] Women received their dead raised to life again. But others were racked, not accepting deliverance, that they might find a better resurrection.

[36] And others had trial of mockeries and stripes, moreover also of bands and prisons. [37] They were stoned, they were cut asunder, they were tempted, they were put to death by the sword, they wandered about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being in want, distressed, afflicted: [38] Of whom the world was not worthy; wandering in deserts, in mountains, and in dens, and in caves of the earth. [39] And all these being approved by the testimony of faith, received not the promise; [40] God providing some better thing for us, that they should not be perfected without us.

[1] And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us: [2] Looking on Jesus, the author and finisher of faith, who having joy set before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and now sitteth on the right hand of the throne of God.

(Hebrews 11-12)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

There are no more mysteries of the faith. They have all been revealed to us now in the person of Jesus Christ...

If the Catholic church is still in the business of keeping the faith a *mystery* they are working contrary to God's plan.

AMEN! Well and faithfully said.

"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." -- Romans 10:3-4