Posted on 10/31/2010 11:59:22 AM PDT by RnMomof7
In Christ Alone lyrics
Songwriters: Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;
In Christ alone my hope is found He is my light, my strength, my song This Cornerstone, this solid ground Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
What heights of love, what depths of peace When fears are stilled, when strivings cease My Comforter, my All in All Here in the love of Christ I stand
In Christ alone, who took on flesh Fullness of God in helpless Babe This gift of love and righteousness Scorned by the ones He came to save
?Til on that cross as Jesus died The wrath of God was satisfied For every sin on Him was laid Here in the death of Christ I live, I live
There in the ground His body lay Light of the world by darkness slain Then bursting forth in glorious Day Up from the grave He rose again
And as He stands in victory Sin?s curse has lost its grip on me For I am His and He is mine Bought with the precious blood of Christ
“The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. ‘The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day’ (so muslims have a plan of salvation )
#2 And this is also Catholic doctrine :
“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved” -Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215 (you know that whole Papal Infallibility thing)
I get it now according to Catholics the Protestants are heretics cause they won’t bow to the Pope but muslims are in the plan of salvation even though they don’t bow down to the Pope . (Oh wait the Pope bowed down and kissed the muslim book )
In the swamp we at have the learnin’ that these two things are Papal
You apparently read the Catechism as you guys read the Bible - in prooftext fashion. I will quote the relevant verses:
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
The Church knows of no man who can journey to salvation without Jesus; yet it acknowledges that God has the final word on who is to be saved. It was a good try on your part, I will say. Next time, either read through the relevant verses, or look them up in order to put the bleatings of your preacher into context and we shall have more meaningful discussion.
Is it Catholics you are trying to insult or the Holy Scripture, or are you having a bad day?
I never said it would, but someone apparently tried to argue that walking through doors was an ability Jesus acquired following His resurrection.
Luke 11:27 tells us "And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked."
Where do you get that all saints should be venerated with this passage?
Anyone argued otherwise? The foundational passage for the Catholic soteriology is Eph 2:4-10 and it makes very clear that grace is not a result of our works.
The Protestant error is that faith produces good works somehow, perhaps, through a chemical reaction. Not so. We should have enough faith to "walk in them". We are not saved by faith alone. Consider James 2:17-26, Matthew 25:31-46.
That is not true. The patrilinear primogeniture had to do with inheritance. The first-born of the father was entitled to twice the inheritance of the other siblings.
Jewish Encyclopedia writes:
Matrilinear pirmogeniture is different. As per Jewish Encyclopedia (my emphasis):
The primogeniture of the mother refers to redemption, not inheritance. The JE explains:
Hence Jesus was the firstborn of redemption, and he belonged to God, by Law (remember Gal 4:4 "born of a woman, born under the Law"?).
You people should not be interpreting anything form the Bible without thoroughly familiarizing yourselves with the customs, laws and the language of the times.
You mean like the Bible?
annalex wrote:
“The Protestant error is that faith produces good works somehow, perhaps, through a chemical reaction.”
annalex, either you, who are quick to criticize anyone for not knowing what the Catholic Church teaches when they criticize it, are yourself quite guilty of the same thing when it comes to what the heirs of the Reformation teach or you just enjoy being (or so you think) the wizard of snark. Neither becomes you nor does it advance your case or win you the respect of others. It’s just cheap and tacky.
This coming from that great Christian apologist, kosta50. "You people"?? A crowd of one surges forward with agnostic advice on Christian understanding. Much like installing stained glass windows in a mud hut.
I think that whole line came from your comment 2861:
“Any evidence of His virgin birth would have been destroyed in the birthing process” (metmon)
“That is not what th Church teaches. The hymen was closed even after birth. Compare John 20:19.” (annalex)
Of course what does John 20:19 have to do with Jesus’ birth????
“Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.” (John 20:19)
LOL!! EXACTLY!
Another judgmental reply on your part that has nothing to do with what I wrote (viva FR spellchecker!)
Give me some thought you have that is not first and foremost RC by design, and I'll begin to believe you when you say you have no affiliation. Perhaps the conversation would be bit more enlightening if it contained some respect and honesty.
ph
Perhaps Lera HAS read through more than the "relevant" verses and relies upon the words of Jesus himself, you know GOD - the one who "has the final word", although I'm sure whoever her pastor is, he doesn't bleat (don't sheep do that?). Jesus said most forcefully, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me". It sure seems like God has already given his final word on the subject. Who are we to think we need to more meaningfully discuss it?
So, all those who are way off out there, on the margins of Christianity, are being misguided by the Holy Spirit?
No, Holy Spirit never "mis"guides the elect. There are plans for the growth of all Christians and they are not all the same. Where He guides any individual Christian is exactly right FOR that particular Christian.
You said, I quote, "We have both seen nutjobs of all stripes use scripture to try to legitimate everything from adultery to abortion to homosexual conduct, etc. Those might be the easy ones, but I have definitely caught myself before trying to justify something I wound up deciding was wrong because of a more honest look at scripture." That doesn't sound like "The Holy Spirit corrected me" but rather you corrected yourself based on your beliefs and personal standards. So, which is it?
My "catching myself" and "deciding" are merely my becoming aware of Holy Spirit's work. All the credit goes to Him. Without Him, scripture would just be words. Only by Him am I ever able to see the truth.
Are you also suggesting that those nutjobs are not guided by the Holy Spirit or that they are guided into wrong conclusions since God already predestined them to hell, so he is only deceiving them intentionally to make sure they don't find that "narrow path" on their own but to wander off and be lost???
It's unknowable since one nutjob belief is not necessarily automatically disqualifying for Christianity. However, for the sake of discussion I was probably taking it as given that these people were not Christians. If we suppose that then it's still unknowable since wrong conclusions can be reached either all by oneself in his sinful nature, OR, God might cause it since He is known to confound the wicked. For example, we have the story of Babel, and these prayers:
So, it's possible, but we can't be sure.
...... Besides, you don't think people change their minds as they experience life from different angles?
Sure they do, all I'm saying is that in some cases God is directly behind it.
If what you are saying is true, then the certainty expressed by Protestants cannot be an absolute certainty, but merely a hope. Hence, a self-contradiction.
I don't see why. I see "absolute certainty" as a relative term, which science has proved over and over. So if I say I have absolute certainty about the truth of the Gospel it is not because nothing else is even theoretically possible, it is because nothing else I can imagine APPEARS possible. So in applying this to what you responded to, I would say that just because life is not a Divine learning process for all does not negate that it can be known for certain that it is for some.
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