Posted on 10/31/2010 11:59:22 AM PDT by RnMomof7
In Christ Alone lyrics
Songwriters: Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;
In Christ alone my hope is found He is my light, my strength, my song This Cornerstone, this solid ground Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
What heights of love, what depths of peace When fears are stilled, when strivings cease My Comforter, my All in All Here in the love of Christ I stand
In Christ alone, who took on flesh Fullness of God in helpless Babe This gift of love and righteousness Scorned by the ones He came to save
?Til on that cross as Jesus died The wrath of God was satisfied For every sin on Him was laid Here in the death of Christ I live, I live
There in the ground His body lay Light of the world by darkness slain Then bursting forth in glorious Day Up from the grave He rose again
And as He stands in victory Sin?s curse has lost its grip on me For I am His and He is mine Bought with the precious blood of Christ
And to an Orthodox believer it's not even an issue. Jesus' aureole has a cross and the word "Ο ΩΝ" which is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton YHWH, which is only seen in Jesus' afterglow. So, no Orthodox would ever thing the middle angle is a created being, but merely appearing as one. It's obvious it is God who is appearing as one of the angles.
You'd be amazed at the theological significance of every detail of every icon.
So, like I thought, you don't believe in God.
That's because it sounds like just want to give me a "shut up" answer, rather than defend your position. I asked you a simple question "So, God is not in charge?"
Ok, I'll give it a try. God is in charge and not one thing happens that he does not already know it and has allowed it to happen. He is able to work all things according to his will and plan. Even the bad stuff, the evil stuff, the gross stuff and the horrible stuff.
Now, the $64k question is why does God allow the evil to exist in the world? No matter what answer I give it will not satisfy everyone but if we don't accept that some things we cannot grasp with our fallible, finite minds then it will end up sounding like a non-answer.
On the second look, there are also words IC XC above the middle angel, the ligatures for Isous Christos, so as to definitely identify the angel as Christ! It’s an icon of OT times because Jesus does not appear in his human nature, but actually as a persona (mask) of an angel.
I understand why the icons were used. They told theological truths. I wonder though, what happened to your amazement of them?
No knowing what God is and therefore not being able to believe in the unknown is not the same as saying there is no God.
If I asked you if you believed in your husband before you meant him, you'd say the same thing. That's not saying he isn't out there.
Ok, I'll give it a try. God is in charge and not one thing happens that he does not already know it and has allowed it to happen. He is able to work all things according to his will and plan. Even the bad stuff, the evil stuff, the gross stuff and the horrible stuff.
Okay, then he is in charge and bad things happen because that's his will and plan, so then he uses sin to get what he set out to get? This doesn't agree with notion that God hates sin.
Now, the $64k question is why does God allow the evil to exist in the world? No matter what answer I give it will not satisfy everyone but if we don't accept that some things we cannot grasp with our fallible, finite minds then it will end up sounding like a non-answer.
Surely you'd agree that God could have created a sinless word, which is something one would expect from a God who really, really hates sin, but he didn't. In fact he is using evil for his ends. I think SFA and getoffmylawn are right: that paints an evil God.
No, boatbums, they just tell theology, not theological truths. I am still amazed by them. You should read what an iconogrpaher has to do before he even sits down to write (icons are written not painted, because they tell as story, a pictorial language of sorts; icons must never be confused for religious art).
Your response is rejected as not serious.
“Inspired word of God? How obtuse does one have to be to make such a statement and have exactly zero, zilch evidence that it is the true? But, hey, you are not alone; there are 1.2 billion Muslims in this world who will tell you that their little green book is (also) inspred word of God...not to mention the LDS and their Book of Mormon...
The only “proof” (LOL) is to say it’s in the Bible. So the Bible says it’s true and it must be true because it’s in the Bible! Gee...and your tag line says what?”
No amount of proof in this life will ever convince you then. The rich man learned the hard way. I'm afraid that by the time you get the proof you want, it's going to be too late to change your mind as well.
You can't say that you weren't warned. God knows, more than enough believers have tried.
Luke 16:19-31 "There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores.
The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'
But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.'
And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house—for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.'
But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"
Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
Of course God could do whatever he wants but he did it this way and it sure does not matter whether we expect it or not he has a reason, a purpose, a plan and we are part of it. I do not think it paints an evil God at all because he has not created us and abandoned us to our own devices. He stepped in to our universe, into our actual space and time and even took on human flesh. He endured all manner of humiliation from the very beings he created and I have a hard time wrapping my mind around that, too. But I don't pretend he is something he is not because I don't like what it "sounds" like to say what he reveals himself to be in Scripture. Neither do I allegorize the icky parts because it doesn't jibe with my romanticized version of him. I accept what he says, I believe what he says and I take on faith that he is good and righteous and holy even when my frail mind screams the opposite when I see the awful stuff that happens. He is the potter and I am the clay and I praise him every day for loving me enough to redeem me from my own mess.
Yes, He did.
God DID create a sinless world.
Honestly, Catholic ignorance of Scripture is appalling.
Thank you, you are correct. He DID create it perfect and WE screwed it up. Next argument will probably be, “Why did he let us screw it up?”.
Which planet would that be?
I guess you were wrong on that one....
Go figure......
The icon is called, as the Greek words say, "The Hospitality of Abraham" and refers to the visit by three "men" to Abraham and Sarah in Genesis 18:1-8. The "angel" to the right is the Holy Spirit, the one in the center, as Kosta points out, is Christ and the one to the left is the Father. Each is holding a rod which are said to be half shepherd's crook half sceptre which demonstrate not only the obvious but also that They are equal. The cup in the middle of the table contains the calf which Abraham ordered be slaughtered and represents the sacrifice of Christ. Notice how the heads of both Christ and the Holy Spirit incline towards the Father who gazes steadily back to Them. This demonstrates the theology that the Father is the source as to procession and begetting of the other two, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father to prepare the way for the Son Who defers to the Father in all things. The gaze demonstrates the divine eros which connects the hypostasia of the Trinity into one ousia and which is in fact the uncreated energy of the Trinity which connects us to God. The three figures make a sort of circle designed to draw us into the Trinity, to a place the place where the Spirit points and where our Triune God surrounds us and enfolds us.
I posted the icon because it embodies precisely Who we Orthodox worship. As we chant at the end of the Liturgy:
We have seen the true light,
We have received the heavenly Spirit.
We have found the true faith,
We worship the undivided Trinity. For the same hath saved us
"But Jesus is NOT a created being like an angel - I think the LDS got some of their screwy doctrine about Jesus and Lucifer being brothers from that idea."
bb, you are clearly serious about your beliefs. You should make an effort to understand it beyond the mere surface.
The icon is called, as the Greek words say, "The Hospitality of Abraham" and refers to the visit by three "men" to Abraham and Sarah in Genesis 18:1-8. The "angel" to the right is the Holy Spirit, the one in the center, as Kosta points out, is Christ and the one to the left is the Father. Each is holding a rod which are said to be half shepherd's crook half sceptre which demonstrate not only the obvious but also that They are equal. The cup in the middle of the table contains the calf which Abraham ordered be slaughtered and represents the sacrifice of Christ. Notice how the heads of both Christ and the Holy Spirit incline towards the Father who gazes steadily back to Them. This demonstrates the theology that the Father is the source as to procession and begetting of the other two, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father to prepare the way for the Son Who defers to the Father in all things. The gaze demonstrates the divine eros which connects the hypostasia of the Trinity into one ousia and which is in fact the uncreated energy of the Trinity which connects us to God. The three figures make a sort of circle designed to draw us into the Trinity, to a place the place where the Spirit points and where our Triune God surrounds us and enfolds us.
I posted the icon because it embodies precisely Who we Orthodox worship. As we chant at the end of the Liturgy:
We have seen the true light,
We have received the heavenly Spirit.
We have found the true faith,
We worship the undivided Trinity. For the same hath saved us
Your response is proof that you have zero, zilch evidence.
What proof? I haven't seen any proof yet.
The rich man learned the hard way.
How do you know that?
I'm afraid that by the time you get the proof you want, it's going to be too late to change your mind as well.
You can't say that you weren't warned. God knows, more than enough believers have tried
Fear mongering, trying to scare someone into believing?
'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"
And you believe that?
How do you know that? Where does God say "I have a reason, a purpose and a plan and you are part of it"?
The rest of your post is expressed as faith, not fact, so I have nothing to disagree with. I don't argue with faith. You are doing good. :)
That would be true if he created it and then withdrew from it and ceded the world to man and his fallen angels. But the Bible says otherwise (and if you don't know that that's truly appalling). The Bible says God was very active in the world even after he created it, and the believers claim he still is.
So, mom, use your reason and tell me: is the world the way it because that's how God wants it to be, or not? It's very simple: either it is his or world or it isn't. Either it is his doing or it isn't. Which is it?
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