Posted on 10/28/2010 10:49:08 AM PDT by betty boop
Just trying to light off some fireworks here! :^)
Rocks collected on the Moon - not subject to wind, rain, and erosion - tell us that it's been 4.6 billion years since "... the Earth was spun from dust and rock around the sun." Ref: "Darwin's Ghost," Steve Jones, pg 195
Thanks for the article.
And you OldNavyVet replied: "Rocks collected on the Moon — not subject to wind, rain, and erosion — tell us that it's been 4.6 billion years since"... the Earth was spun from dust and rock around the sun." ...
Okay, OldNavyVet. But tell me: How is your statement responsive to the question of how order — and particularly of biological order — can arise in a "random" system?
This goes to my dearest sister in Christ, Alamo-Girl's observation that we cannot possibly know what is "random" in a system, if we don't know what the system "is." And unless you are going to take a "whole system" approach to the natural world, how can you find out?
Contemporary science seems to be taking the position that the "whole system" is simply an additive "piling up of its parts." Thus, if you get down into the weeds, and study the parts, you can figure out what the whole is. Stochastic methods help us do this.
This is the problem that Darwinism refuses to engage: They want, they require, that everything that exists "supervenes on the physical" — than is, on simple matter in its motions, as determined by Newtonian mechanics. And that somehow matter presumably is able to bootstrap itself into life and consciousness, via a process of random mutation and natural selection. (Selection for what? Selection itself implies the existence of a final cause. See more below.)
It might be said "random" is virtually undistinguishable in meaning from "chaos".... If so, what is the natural propensity of chaos to organize itself? On any time scale???
"Random" is also the way to eliminate the problem of final cause. Rather than having natural evolution working towards and for a purpose or goal, purposes and goals are stipulated to be emergent from purely material processes (i.e., they are epiphenomena or by-products of something else). But even then you can't call them purposes or goals!
Contemporary science does not want to deal with final causes, period. Evidently on the basis that if you admit a purpose or goal, then the next question becomes: Whose purpose? And then quite possibly, God "gets a foot in the door," and we cannot allow that! [according to Richard Lewontin]
But with or without God, there are final causes in nature. Biological functions depend on final causes, as the mathematician Robert Rosen has pointed out.
“Final cause” in the phenomenal sense does not invoke the idea of telos [purpose, goal, end, limit] on cosmic scale. It only invokes the idea of finality of a process in nature. Such as a biological function — you know, those little things like metabolism, respiration, cell repair, etc., etc.
Finality in this sense pertains to the necessary causal closure for efficient causation to depend solely on the resources of the “isolated” system in which it operates. A further indispensable insight is, from the standpoint of the biological Whole, there are no isolated systems; there are only a multiplicity of particular systems, each of which produces its “desired” effect in contribution to the already elaborate, multifarious multiplicity of other effects which altogether are necessary to sustain the integrated biological Whole.
Which I gather is why Rosen thought he ought to seek out complex systems theory for guiding helps. (Simple systems are not biological ones as a rule)…. Stochastic methods having already shown their shortcomings….
It seems to me that one cannot speak of a “function” absent the idea of system closure, which can be described at the causal level if the idea of final cause can be admitted to the table.
If these ideas seem overly abstruse, we can easily simplify them just by taking a hint from Robert Rosen. He suggested that the entire idea of “final cause” is exactly equivalent to positing the natural human question, “Why?” Anytime we ask the question, “Why?” about anything in natural experience, we are invoking — or soliciting — a final cause explanation.
Aristotle explained final cause this way:
Further, the final cause is an end, and that sort of end which is not for the sake of something else, but for whose sake everything else is; so that if there is to be a last term of this sort, the process will not be infinite; but if there is no such term, there will be no final cause, but those who maintain the infinite series eliminate the Good without knowing it (yet no one would try to do anything if he were not going to come to a limit); nor would there be reason in the world; the reasonable man, at least, always acts for a purpose, and this is a limit; for the end is a limit. — Aristotle Metaphysics Book II, Part 2In sum, the fact that the physical earth "was spun from dust and rock around the sun," while most likely valid, does not even engage the possibility that this process was merely a step, or a way station, on the road to an end (purpose, goal, telos) in nature. In this case, a preparatory stage necessary for the emergence of life on this planet. In short, a movement towards a final cause.
About which the dust and rock are totally silent, nor can they be otherwise.
Well, JMHO FWIW.
Thank you so much for writing, OldNavyVet!
DAWKINS: (snip)"…But yet we have this gathering together of genes into individual organisms. And that reminds me of the illusion of one mind, when actually there are lots of little mindlets in there, and the illusion of the soul of the white ant in the termite mound, where you have lots of little entities all pulling together to create an illusion of one. Am I right to think that the feeling that I have that I'm a single entity, who makes decisions, and loves and hates and has political views and things, that this is a kind of illusion that has come about because Darwinian selection found it expedient to create that illusion of unitariness rather than let us be a kind of society of mind?"http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/dawkins_pinker/debate_p10.htmlPINKER: "It's a very interesting question. Yes, there is a sense in which the whole brain has interests in common in the way that say a whole body composed of genes with their own selfish motives has a single agenda. In the case of the genes the fact that their fates all depend on the survival of the body forces them to cooperate. In the case of the different parts of the brain, the fact that the brain ultimately controls a body that has to be in one place at one time may impose the need for some kind of circuit, presumably in the frontal lobes, that coordinates the different agendas of the different parts of the brain to ensure that the whole body goes in one direction. In How the Mind Works I alluded to a scene in the comedy movie All of Me in which Lily Tomlin's soul inhabits the left half of Steve Martin's body and he takes a few steps in one direction under his own control and then lurches in another direction with his pinkie extended while under the control of Lily Tomlin's spirit. That is what would happen if you had nothing but completely autonomous modules of the brain, each with its own goal. Since the body has to be in one place at one time, there might be a circuit that suppresses the conflicting motives…"(end snip)
You know this guy? ? Catholic, Thomist, funny, smart.
And certainly I remember the piece of it from which you quoted, "The Soul of the White Ant."
To say that Dawkins and Pinker are reductionists of the first order would be the grossest understatement. They "quantize" man down to the level of an ant, and then start blathering about man as if he were an ant.
Am I the only person here who sees there's something intrinsically dishonest about their entire approach to science — and to reality?
Just gave it a quick gloss — and can't wait to give it a more substantial read!
Thank you ever so much for your introduction of Edward Feser!
Please note the use of the word “phenomenal” in the following.
“Final cause” in the phenomenal sense does not invoke the idea of telos [purpose, goal, end, limit] on cosmic scale. It only invokes the idea of finality of a process in nature. Such as a biological function — you know, those little things like metabolism, respiration, cell repair, etc., etc.
Given that, and then reading your Aristotle quote carefully … To wit:
“Further, the final cause is an end, and that sort of end which is not for the sake of something else, but for whose sake everything else is; so that if there is to be a last term of this sort, the process will not be infinite; but if there is no such term, there will be no final cause, but those who maintain the infinite series eliminate the Good without knowing it (yet no one would try to do anything if he were not going to come to a limit); nor would there be reason in the world; the reasonable man, at least, always acts for a purpose, and this is a limit; for the end is a limit. — Aristotle Metaphysics Book II, Part 2
… I’d say that Aristotle was looking at practical reality in explaining the phenomenal aspect in “infinity,” while saying that looking at things “infinite” is not reasonable.
Given that, I went to Ayn Rand for her thoughts on causality and found this.
”Only a process of final causation – i.e., the process of choosing a goal, then taking the steps to achieve it – can you give logical continuity, coherence and meaning to a man’s actions.
Thank you for your patience … it is one of Aristotle’s “virtues.”
The bold italics were added by you. But with this term, Aristotle indicates a logical transition. He is moving from the more general, to the more specific human case. He is qualifying his opening statement, about what is necessary in logic and reason — which he considers to be universal — and the way things are perceived by a human observer not fully conversant with natural truth.
With the bolds — possibly you should have supplied them earlier, at the line, "so that if there is to be a last term of this sort" — he is questioning man, asking him to reason about the significance of this "last term," and its import for the intelligibility of the natural world, of the universe, to the human mind.
Aristotle was right — it seems unquestionably the case in my mind — to assert the absolute necessity of a first uncaused case, of a Prime Mover, in order for a universe to occur in a way that is intelligible to the human mind.
Make of that what you will. The problem of first cause is not preeminently, nor exclusively a scientific problem. Still, science itself utterly depends on it for its own foundation in reason and logic.
As far as infinity is concerned, I can't speak for Aristotle. But I do know that great minds now agree on the proposition that the mathematical term infinity is not constructible in physics. Nor is it anything that a human mind can reach, let alone comprehend.
From DNA analysis; Steve Jones, in Darwin's Ghost (pg 284), tells us that ...
"About a thousand genes are shared by every organism, however simple or complicated. Although their common ancestor must have lived more than a billion years ago, their shared structure can still be glimpsed. It shows how the grand plan of life has been modified through the course of evolution."
So big deal, OldNavyVet. I read recently that humans and daffodils share some 24% of a common genetic heritage — whatever that is. But to notice as much is not to explain WHY this is so.
Darwin's theory is no help here.
Perhaps you might consider reading other than Steve Jones; assuming you really want to get a grip on this problem.
Darwin's "common ancestor" is, in my view, an anthropogenic construct and nothing more.
But if you want to talk about the "genome," I'm all ears.
You may have heard about the Human Genome Project. Evidently, it crashed and burned. But folks don't want to talk about that....
Thanks for the ping.
Probably heading to bed early tonight.
LUB
Truly, you've touched on every aspect of the debate. I look forward to the comments to see where the interests might be. For now, I only have two points to raise.
First is qualia - love, hate, joy, pain and so on - which can be experienced but not conveyed. A computer cannot be programmed to experience qualia. It is a phenomenon of autonomy in nature that has no materialistic explanation and thus the naturalist's defense is to deny qualia exists in the first place.
Second is the term "random" which as you have pointed out is inappropriate to use with reference to a system when one does not know what the system "is." Since the number and types of dimensions are both unknown and unknowable, it is inappropriate to say a phenomenon is random in nature. The proper term is "unpredictable."
The word "unpredictable" does not preclude as yet unknown causation and can be applied without reference to what the system "is."
Sadly, the term "random" has been misused in science for so long it would be difficult to correct. Nevertheless as we discussed on another thread recently, ideologues must not control the dictionary.
snip: This goes to my dearest sister in Christ, Alamo-Girl’s observation that we cannot possibly know what is “random” in a system, if we don’t know what the system “is.” And unless you are going to take a “whole system” approach to the natural world, how can you find out?
Spirited: The questions being asked cannot be logically answered within the larger context of “naturalism” for the reason that naturalism subsumes everything within itself.
In other words, naturalism is monism, which means that the cosmos and everything within it are parts of something else-—a One Thing.
Naturalism is like a coin. One side is materialism and the other is pantheism.
Materialist monism says that this One Thing is Brute Matter hence all things spiritual, ie., God the Father, mind, souls,conscience, free will, angels, and demons are excluded.
Using Eastern pantheism as the example, this type of monism says that the One Thing is impersonal, nonliving but divine spirit and everything is part of this spirit. By extension, everything from cancer to bedbugs and dung, from cows to trees and men are god because they are parts of the One Thing which is divine spirit.
In this view, not only are all things material an illusion, but so too are individual souls-spirits, mind, free will, and conscience, all of which are concepts unique to the Biblical worldview.
In short, the Biblical view says man is both material (body, brain) and spiritual (mind, conscience, free will). In that his mind transcends the material, man is uniquely enabled to be an objective observer of the material dimension. He can know something about the material dimension precisely because his mind, which is spiritual, transcends and is therefore free of the material.
Naturalism effectively nihilizes man’s spiritual endowments by making him a part of something else in the way that grains of sand are merely parts of a beach (materialism) or drops of water are merely parts of a cosmic ocean (pantheism). Because we are parts of the system, we cannnot logically “know what the system “is” anymore than a drop of water can know about the ocean of which it is a fractional part.
In the name of evolutionism and progress, we have marched backwards in time. Though the terminolgy is changed, the underlying arguments are the same, tired arguments made by naturalistic Greek philosophers. We stand once more in the Greek aeropagus with Paul as he is mocked and scoffed at by proud, arrogant Epicureans (materialists) and Stoics (pantheists).
Cordially,
To the contrary, A simple Google search shows that the Human Genome Project is going strong …
Ref: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=hts&oq=&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ACAW_enUS351US351&q=Human+Genome+Project
Another similar catch is on pages 213 and 214 of Steve Jones' "Darwin's Ghost," where Jones writes:
Streams evolve through a balance of forces. The bed shifts as it erodes one bank and dumps its remains on the other. It returns when its loops are cut off as the water finds a more direct route downhill. Complexity – meandering – is opposed by simplicity, the shortest path to the sea. Raindrop, Meander and Mississippi follow the same rules. Measurements of dozens of real rivers, and computer simulations of many more, reveal that the relationship between their shortest possible path across a plain and their actual length is always the same. It is pi, the ratio between the circumference of a circle and its diameter. Each river, whatever its size, goes a little more than three times farther than it needs on its way to the sea.
Great observation, spirited irish!
I've noticed that many physicists working in theoretical biology are attracted to Eastern philosophical ideas, e.g., pantheism. For example, Ervin Schrodinger attached an epilog to his famous (and fascinating) essay "What Is Life?" (1944) that mentioned the following:
...let us see whether we cannot draw the correct, non-contradictory conclusion from the following two premises: (i) My body functions as a pure mechanism according to the Laws of Nature. (ii) Yet I know, by incontrovertible direct experience, that I am directing its motions, of which I foresee the effects, that may be fateful and all-important, in which case I feel and take full responsibility for them. The only possible inference from these two facts is, I think, that I — I in the widest meaning of the word, that is to say, every conscious mind that has ever said or felt 'I' — am the person, if any, who controls the 'motion of the atoms' according to the Laws of Nature. Within a cultural milieu (Kulturkreis) where certain conceptions (which once had or still have a wider meaning amongst other peoples) have been limited and specialized, it is daring to give to this conclusion the simple wording that it requires. In Christian terminology to say: 'Hence I am God Almighty' sounds both blasphemous and lunatic. But please disregard these connotations for the moment and consider whether the above inference is not the closest a biologist can get to proving also their God and immortality at one stroke. In itself, the insight is not new. The earliest records to my knowledge date back some 2,500 years or more. From the early great Upanishads the recognition ATHMAN = BRAHMAN upheld in (the personal self equals the omnipresent, all-comprehending eternal self) was in Indian thought considered, far from being blasphemous, to represent the quintessence of deepest insight into the happenings of the world. The striving of all the scholars of Vedanta was, after having learnt to pronounce with their lips, really to assimilate in their minds this grandest of all thoughts. Again, the mystics of many centuries, independently, yet in perfect harmony with each other (somewhat like the particles in an ideal gas) have described, each of them, the unique experience of his or her life in terms that can be condensed in the phrase: DEUS FACTUS SUM (I have become God). To Western ideology the thought has remained a stranger, in spite of Schopenhauer and others who stood for it and in spite of those true lovers who, as they look into each other's eyes, become aware that their thought and their joy are numerically one — not merely similar or identical; but they, as a rule, are emotionally too busy to indulge in clear thinking, [in] which respect they very much resemble the mystic....Thus there is a fundamental worldview at work. And of course our worldview definitely informs and affects our science....
Thank you so much for your insightful essay/post, dear spirited!
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