Posted on 10/19/2010 8:21:21 AM PDT by Colofornian
In shopping around for a Cub Scout program for their two sons, ages 6 and 8, Jeremy and Jodi Stokes decided on the one at Christ Covenant Church in Matthews.
The Stokes, also of Matthews, weren't members of the evangelical megachurch, but they had many friends who were. And unlike the Cub Scout pack at their own church, which doesn't have a program for 6-year-old Tiger Scouts, Christ Covenant's was big enough to accommodate both of their boys.
The couple even signed up to be Scout leaders - he would lead the Bears, she'd help with the Tigers - when they discovered the church needed more adult help. And when the Scouting officials at Christ Covenant found out Jeremy Stokes was an Eagle Scout, they were thrilled.
So why, in the end, did Christ Covenant reject the Stokes' application to be Scout leaders?
Because they're Mormons. And, therefore, not real Christians, church officials told the couple last month.
The Rev. Gabe Sylvia, Christ Covenant's staff liaison to the Scouting program, confirmed the Stokes' account. He called them to apologize but defends the church's decision.
"Based on a once-over, informal scan, it looked like the Stokes would be good additions to our leadership," he said. "But when it became clear that they were Mormons, they could not become leaders in our pack. Mormonism is not consistent with historical Christianity."
That view - that Mormons are not Christians - is shared by other Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox Christian churches. Mormons, though, do call themselves Christians.
The Stokes were told their sons were welcome to join, and that they could volunteer. But as practicing Mormons, they couldn't be leaders.
Scout Council: It's unusual
Mark Turner, executive director of the Mecklenburg County Council of the Boy Scouts, said it's the first local instance he knows of where parents were rejected for Scout leadership on religious grounds.
What upset the Stokes family most was the church questioning their Christianity.
"It was so offensive," said Jodi Stokes, who was raised Catholic, then became a Mormon. "I have a picture of Jesus in my living room."
And, she added, look at the formal name of their church: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Jeremy Stokes, a Bank of America financial consultant whose family has been in the LDS (Latter-day Saints) church for generations, wrote this when asked on Christ Covenant's Scouting application to describe his relationship with Christ: "One of the most important things in my life is my faith and trust in Christ and in His Atonement. Without Christ's help and guidance, I know I wouldn't be the loving father or devoted husband or humble man I am today. His example is the one help I need and rely on every day and I am truly grateful for that."
Bishop Steven Rowlan of the LDS ward, or parish, which the Stokes attend in Weddington, acknowledged that Mormon theology diverges from some beliefs shared by most Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox Christians. But he insisted members of the LDS church are as Christian as the members of Christ Covenant.
"Yes, there are distinct differences," he said. "But not with respect to being a Christian. We definitely and truly are Christians in every sense of the word."
Not true, say Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox churches. They point to the LDS church's extra-biblical scriptures (Mormons abide by the Bible and the Book of Mormon). Mormons also reject the professions of faith, or Christian creeds, that are recited on Sundays in many Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant churches.
But the Stokes case raises another issue: Do Scout leaders or coaches of sports teams have to pass the same religious tests as, say, Sunday school teachers, if those troops and teams are chartered by houses of worship?
Packs at other churches
No is the answer at many churches, including Charlotte's largest - St. Matthew Catholic, with 28,000 members.
"We have Scout leaders of many faiths at St. Matthew," said Mike Nielsen, Scoutmaster of Boy Scout Troop 8. "Other than the Scoutmaster - that one job, which goes to a Catholic - I've never heard any mention of the faith of other (Cub Scout and Boy Scout) leaders."
But at Christ Covenant - the largest Presbyterian Church of America church in the Carolinas, with 600 families - the answer is yes.
"Boy Scouts is a ministry of our church," said Sylvia, the church's pastor for Christian Education and Young Families. "We want to insure that what (Scout leaders) believe is consistent with our denominational viewpoint."
For Sylvia, that at least means that Scout leaders must believe in the Apostles' Creed - a profession of faith dating back to the early centuries of Christianity.
Stelle Snyder, the spokeswoman for Christ Covenant, said it could even extend beyond that. A decade ago, she said, the church had to say no to a Catholic dad who wanted to coach one of the church's sports teams. Catholics, she said, often stress good works as the road to salvation more than many Protestants, who emphasize grace. And she said it's part of the role of coaches in her church's sports outreach program to share Bible stories.
"From the standpoint of ministering and representing the church, those people (coaches and Scout leaders) need to be on the same page," Snyder said. "In practice and intent, this is not meant to be unwelcome, unpleasant or unnecessarily legalistic. It's all for positive reasons. And it's not that Mormons have been singled out."
Turner, executive director of Mecklenburg's Boy Scouts Council, said Christ Covenant is within its rights as a chartering organization to apply additional leadership qualifications, as long as it also honors those the Boy Scouts insist on.
Some of the Boy Scouts' national guidelines have also been controversial and, to some, discriminatory. Because the Boy Scout pledge includes fealty to God and country, no atheists and agnostics can be members or leaders. Neither can homosexuals.
In Mecklenburg, Turner estimates 150 houses of worship charter Boy Scout troops and/or Cub Scout packs - a greater number than those sponsored by civic organizations, neighborhoods, and other groups.
Asked if other houses of worship apply theological tests for their Scouting leaders, Turner said he didn't know. "We're not asking that question out there," he said.
Should they?
"I think it's a good question," Turner said. "Scout leaders are mentors to young people, whether they're 7 years old or 13 years old. If that charter organization feels strongly about that and says our mission is to achieve 'X' objective through scouting, then it's OK for them to set these parameters."
Blatant racial discrimination would be another story, he said, with the council reserving the right to revoke any group's charter.
As for the Stokes family, Turner said, what happened was "unfortunate... We in the Boy Scouts want everybody - the whole family - to have a great experience, not a bad experience."
Stokes find Scouting home
Though the family pulled their sons out of the Christ Covenant scouting program, they have since signed up their 8-year-old for the smaller Cub Scout pack chartered by their Mormon ward in Weddington. The bishop has named Jeremy Stokes the pack Cubmaster and Jodi Stokes chair of the Scout committee.
"My little guy (the 6-year-old) can't join, so he tags along," his mother said.
Nationally, the Mormon church has a close relationship with the Boy Scouts of America. What is the Mormon church's rules about appointing Scout leaders?
Mormon Bishop Rowlan, who heads the Stokes' Weddington church, would not say whether he would be open to naming a non-Mormon as a Scouting leader.
"I'd have to take each one on an individual basis," he said, adding that that is the policy of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
At Christ Covenant, meanwhile, Rev. Sylvia and spokeswoman Snyder said the Stokes case will prompt the church to clarify policies that were always understood, but not necessarily written down.
"There's a need for us to be much more specific, so that it's clear whoever is in a leadership position is consistent with what Christ Covenant teaches," said Snyder.
LOL. I wasn’t fishing for compliments. I find it amusing is all.
Back on topic...did you see the Ogden examiner spin on this? It reads like a different incident altogether.
I stand corrected.
Not courage, arrogance.
Interesting commentary here -
http://blog.mrm.org/2010/10/christian-church-declines-mormon-application-for-scouting-leadership/
It does make some excellent points. I like this one in particular...
A look at Christ Covenant’s online Statement of Faith reveals that the pictures one hangs in one’s living room, and the name of the church to which one belongs, do not even merit honorable mention in its summary of “What We Believe.” In fact, of the nine doctrines listed in that Statement of Faith (addressing Scripture, the nature of God, the nature of man, the Being of Christ, the way of salvation, etc.), Mormonism disagrees with six (or perhaps even seven) of them.
Same bleat over and over by mormons as evidence that they are 'Christian'. At first I thought it was just the ones here. With expanded reading, it is VERY common, ingrained into their very psyche. I still find it remarkable that it wasn't too long ago they wanted nothing to do with Christianity and took pride in being called mormons. I can't conceive that people as smart as most mormons are so clearly cannot see the nose on their face in a mirror.
It isn’t just here. That is the first ‘defense’ the LDS use and use it a lot because it is effective to those who don’t know better.
I have a friend, who when she got saved, told her LDS husband “I got saved while you were gone (he was out to sea), now I am a Christian just like you!”
His response was, he bellowed “I AM NOT A ‘CHRISTIAN’! I AM A MORMON”.
That was before they decided to jump on the ‘Christian’ bandwagon.
Judging from the articles, that 'defense' is failing fast.
That was before they decided to jump on the ‘Christian’ bandwagon.
I keep trying to pin down the events that were associated with that change. Wasn't it the SLC winter olympics that served as the catalyst?
It was before that. It started with the ‘interfaith’ channel in the late 1980’s (mormon, liberal Christian and Jewish). But didn’t really take off until the late 1990’s. IMO, the internet was the imputus. Too much info available.
Of course now it is in full swing.
Also don't dismiss the overseas marketing SLC has been forced into doing due to tapping out the US market and the fact that the potential marks there know too much due to the Internet.
The “Christian” brand name is big overseas where the LDS is attempting to generate more revenue (called getting members)
Do I smell an AGENDA?
Or else what?
I thought that ANYONE who posts are liable to get a response by ANYONE else.
Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances.
One sure fire way to ensure a particular poster cannot “ping” you is to not post yourself.
Gut punching someone then tossing on some spectacles and saying “You can't hit a kid with glasses on” is less than honorable, to put it politely.
One sure fire way to ensure a particular poster cannot “ping” you is to not post yourself.
Gut punching someone then tossing on some spectacles and saying “You can't hit a kid with glasses on” is less than honorable, to put it politely.
Also, in order for a statement to be "making it personal" it must be speaking of another Freeper, personally. Critical remarks about deities, religious authorities, beliefs, authors, statements made by another Freeper or even groups of Freepers - are not "making it personal."
Thansk, kind of what I was thinking.
bttt
“They just assume women are not as smart as men, even though they are proven wrong over and over again.”
YOU, reaganaut, are blazingly smart. I’ve witnessed it. My bride is brilliant. Those who denigrate woman do it, in my opinion, to elevate themselves and bolster their own self image... which must need it.
ampu
Thanks, AMPU.
I think you are right. Sadly, I have met far too many men who are scared of intelligent women, the local Lutheran minister is one of them - we have gone several rounds.
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