"The Farce is strong in this one..."
Posted on 10/19/2010 8:21:21 AM PDT by Colofornian
In shopping around for a Cub Scout program for their two sons, ages 6 and 8, Jeremy and Jodi Stokes decided on the one at Christ Covenant Church in Matthews.
The Stokes, also of Matthews, weren't members of the evangelical megachurch, but they had many friends who were. And unlike the Cub Scout pack at their own church, which doesn't have a program for 6-year-old Tiger Scouts, Christ Covenant's was big enough to accommodate both of their boys.
The couple even signed up to be Scout leaders - he would lead the Bears, she'd help with the Tigers - when they discovered the church needed more adult help. And when the Scouting officials at Christ Covenant found out Jeremy Stokes was an Eagle Scout, they were thrilled.
So why, in the end, did Christ Covenant reject the Stokes' application to be Scout leaders?
Because they're Mormons. And, therefore, not real Christians, church officials told the couple last month.
The Rev. Gabe Sylvia, Christ Covenant's staff liaison to the Scouting program, confirmed the Stokes' account. He called them to apologize but defends the church's decision.
"Based on a once-over, informal scan, it looked like the Stokes would be good additions to our leadership," he said. "But when it became clear that they were Mormons, they could not become leaders in our pack. Mormonism is not consistent with historical Christianity."
That view - that Mormons are not Christians - is shared by other Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox Christian churches. Mormons, though, do call themselves Christians.
The Stokes were told their sons were welcome to join, and that they could volunteer. But as practicing Mormons, they couldn't be leaders.
Scout Council: It's unusual
Mark Turner, executive director of the Mecklenburg County Council of the Boy Scouts, said it's the first local instance he knows of where parents were rejected for Scout leadership on religious grounds.
What upset the Stokes family most was the church questioning their Christianity.
"It was so offensive," said Jodi Stokes, who was raised Catholic, then became a Mormon. "I have a picture of Jesus in my living room."
And, she added, look at the formal name of their church: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Jeremy Stokes, a Bank of America financial consultant whose family has been in the LDS (Latter-day Saints) church for generations, wrote this when asked on Christ Covenant's Scouting application to describe his relationship with Christ: "One of the most important things in my life is my faith and trust in Christ and in His Atonement. Without Christ's help and guidance, I know I wouldn't be the loving father or devoted husband or humble man I am today. His example is the one help I need and rely on every day and I am truly grateful for that."
Bishop Steven Rowlan of the LDS ward, or parish, which the Stokes attend in Weddington, acknowledged that Mormon theology diverges from some beliefs shared by most Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox Christians. But he insisted members of the LDS church are as Christian as the members of Christ Covenant.
"Yes, there are distinct differences," he said. "But not with respect to being a Christian. We definitely and truly are Christians in every sense of the word."
Not true, say Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox churches. They point to the LDS church's extra-biblical scriptures (Mormons abide by the Bible and the Book of Mormon). Mormons also reject the professions of faith, or Christian creeds, that are recited on Sundays in many Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant churches.
But the Stokes case raises another issue: Do Scout leaders or coaches of sports teams have to pass the same religious tests as, say, Sunday school teachers, if those troops and teams are chartered by houses of worship?
Packs at other churches
No is the answer at many churches, including Charlotte's largest - St. Matthew Catholic, with 28,000 members.
"We have Scout leaders of many faiths at St. Matthew," said Mike Nielsen, Scoutmaster of Boy Scout Troop 8. "Other than the Scoutmaster - that one job, which goes to a Catholic - I've never heard any mention of the faith of other (Cub Scout and Boy Scout) leaders."
But at Christ Covenant - the largest Presbyterian Church of America church in the Carolinas, with 600 families - the answer is yes.
"Boy Scouts is a ministry of our church," said Sylvia, the church's pastor for Christian Education and Young Families. "We want to insure that what (Scout leaders) believe is consistent with our denominational viewpoint."
For Sylvia, that at least means that Scout leaders must believe in the Apostles' Creed - a profession of faith dating back to the early centuries of Christianity.
Stelle Snyder, the spokeswoman for Christ Covenant, said it could even extend beyond that. A decade ago, she said, the church had to say no to a Catholic dad who wanted to coach one of the church's sports teams. Catholics, she said, often stress good works as the road to salvation more than many Protestants, who emphasize grace. And she said it's part of the role of coaches in her church's sports outreach program to share Bible stories.
"From the standpoint of ministering and representing the church, those people (coaches and Scout leaders) need to be on the same page," Snyder said. "In practice and intent, this is not meant to be unwelcome, unpleasant or unnecessarily legalistic. It's all for positive reasons. And it's not that Mormons have been singled out."
Turner, executive director of Mecklenburg's Boy Scouts Council, said Christ Covenant is within its rights as a chartering organization to apply additional leadership qualifications, as long as it also honors those the Boy Scouts insist on.
Some of the Boy Scouts' national guidelines have also been controversial and, to some, discriminatory. Because the Boy Scout pledge includes fealty to God and country, no atheists and agnostics can be members or leaders. Neither can homosexuals.
In Mecklenburg, Turner estimates 150 houses of worship charter Boy Scout troops and/or Cub Scout packs - a greater number than those sponsored by civic organizations, neighborhoods, and other groups.
Asked if other houses of worship apply theological tests for their Scouting leaders, Turner said he didn't know. "We're not asking that question out there," he said.
Should they?
"I think it's a good question," Turner said. "Scout leaders are mentors to young people, whether they're 7 years old or 13 years old. If that charter organization feels strongly about that and says our mission is to achieve 'X' objective through scouting, then it's OK for them to set these parameters."
Blatant racial discrimination would be another story, he said, with the council reserving the right to revoke any group's charter.
As for the Stokes family, Turner said, what happened was "unfortunate... We in the Boy Scouts want everybody - the whole family - to have a great experience, not a bad experience."
Stokes find Scouting home
Though the family pulled their sons out of the Christ Covenant scouting program, they have since signed up their 8-year-old for the smaller Cub Scout pack chartered by their Mormon ward in Weddington. The bishop has named Jeremy Stokes the pack Cubmaster and Jodi Stokes chair of the Scout committee.
"My little guy (the 6-year-old) can't join, so he tags along," his mother said.
Nationally, the Mormon church has a close relationship with the Boy Scouts of America. What is the Mormon church's rules about appointing Scout leaders?
Mormon Bishop Rowlan, who heads the Stokes' Weddington church, would not say whether he would be open to naming a non-Mormon as a Scouting leader.
"I'd have to take each one on an individual basis," he said, adding that that is the policy of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
At Christ Covenant, meanwhile, Rev. Sylvia and spokeswoman Snyder said the Stokes case will prompt the church to clarify policies that were always understood, but not necessarily written down.
"There's a need for us to be much more specific, so that it's clear whoever is in a leadership position is consistent with what Christ Covenant teaches," said Snyder.
Your post 599 sez it all.
Or if they are the “operator/manipulator” class member of the cult part of the training to play the game.
Do not stalk nor ping me again RM: why has this thread not been locked ?? It has degenerated into abusive name calling. Your comments are making it personal.
Do not stalk nor ping me again.
You are kidding, right?
You have been taken down by the RM for your remarks
Please do not stalk me nor ping me again.
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Where? I don’t see it? You are the one that made it personal. I didn’t post that post that was removed.
And may I remind you that YOU are the one that said my degree was only because of ‘affirmative action’.
And please show me where I am ‘stalking’ you. More baseless accusations.
You are aware of what an open forum is, correct?
RM would you agree that if one does not wish to be responded to, one should refrain from responding themselves?
Wanting to shut down debate, especially when you are the one hurling the insults, bad form but expected. Quaint form or crying "uncle".
Priceless
Godzilla to UriÂ’el-2012: Your God apparently has a low view of women. Great for sharing that with all of us.
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You know, I get really tired of men who think that the only way a woman could get an advanced degree (especially in History, Theology, Biblical Studies etc) is through affirmative action.
They just assume women are not as smart as men, even though they are proven wrong over and over again.
For instance you get the concept of an open forum...
Seriously. Wanting the thread locked after losing a debate and hurling insults, especially when that person has spent much of the thread telling US we aren’t really Christians but rather Pagans.
That takes some very big gonads.
Are those the only options?
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No, but the first that came to mind in response to the affirmative action comment.
It is reasonable. Much like modern Europe. I have friends who can at least ‘get by’ in 3 or 4 languages with fluency in at least one other (usually English).
Kind of a no-brainer.
Check the rules. I didn't make the sexist comments - they were yours. My commentary was on your statement - if you believe what you said, you should stand by it. If it is not, then the honorable thing (as well as the scriptural thing) would be for you to apologize to reaganaut for making that statement in the first place - and not apologize to the RM for being caught making it. As of this reply, I have yet to see an apology to reaganaut.
You are pinged because I was responding to your post - that kind of thing happens thousands of times per day on FR - the electronic town square.
The RM's guidance is that the thin-skinned should avoid the RF.
Indeed demanding an end to discussions or trying to change the subject or focus is what the losing end of the argument does.
I find that to be a weakness not a strength.
Stand for what you believe, if it is true and good and right no words or actions will prevail and there is no need for safe harbor (or Mommy’s coattails).
ROFL
No it doesn't. Very much the opposite.
"The Farce is strong in this one..."
And this comment by you ISN'T?!? Wow. Just Wow.
To: reaganaut
My knowledge doesn’t come from Mel Gibson movies, rather a PhD in Ancient History (Roman).
ROTFLOL ! ! !
If you have those words on a vellum
it is solely because of affirmative action.
576 posted on Friday, October 22, 2010 10:05:34 AM by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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