Posted on 10/19/2010 8:21:21 AM PDT by Colofornian
In shopping around for a Cub Scout program for their two sons, ages 6 and 8, Jeremy and Jodi Stokes decided on the one at Christ Covenant Church in Matthews.
The Stokes, also of Matthews, weren't members of the evangelical megachurch, but they had many friends who were. And unlike the Cub Scout pack at their own church, which doesn't have a program for 6-year-old Tiger Scouts, Christ Covenant's was big enough to accommodate both of their boys.
The couple even signed up to be Scout leaders - he would lead the Bears, she'd help with the Tigers - when they discovered the church needed more adult help. And when the Scouting officials at Christ Covenant found out Jeremy Stokes was an Eagle Scout, they were thrilled.
So why, in the end, did Christ Covenant reject the Stokes' application to be Scout leaders?
Because they're Mormons. And, therefore, not real Christians, church officials told the couple last month.
The Rev. Gabe Sylvia, Christ Covenant's staff liaison to the Scouting program, confirmed the Stokes' account. He called them to apologize but defends the church's decision.
"Based on a once-over, informal scan, it looked like the Stokes would be good additions to our leadership," he said. "But when it became clear that they were Mormons, they could not become leaders in our pack. Mormonism is not consistent with historical Christianity."
That view - that Mormons are not Christians - is shared by other Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox Christian churches. Mormons, though, do call themselves Christians.
The Stokes were told their sons were welcome to join, and that they could volunteer. But as practicing Mormons, they couldn't be leaders.
Scout Council: It's unusual
Mark Turner, executive director of the Mecklenburg County Council of the Boy Scouts, said it's the first local instance he knows of where parents were rejected for Scout leadership on religious grounds.
What upset the Stokes family most was the church questioning their Christianity.
"It was so offensive," said Jodi Stokes, who was raised Catholic, then became a Mormon. "I have a picture of Jesus in my living room."
And, she added, look at the formal name of their church: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Jeremy Stokes, a Bank of America financial consultant whose family has been in the LDS (Latter-day Saints) church for generations, wrote this when asked on Christ Covenant's Scouting application to describe his relationship with Christ: "One of the most important things in my life is my faith and trust in Christ and in His Atonement. Without Christ's help and guidance, I know I wouldn't be the loving father or devoted husband or humble man I am today. His example is the one help I need and rely on every day and I am truly grateful for that."
Bishop Steven Rowlan of the LDS ward, or parish, which the Stokes attend in Weddington, acknowledged that Mormon theology diverges from some beliefs shared by most Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox Christians. But he insisted members of the LDS church are as Christian as the members of Christ Covenant.
"Yes, there are distinct differences," he said. "But not with respect to being a Christian. We definitely and truly are Christians in every sense of the word."
Not true, say Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox churches. They point to the LDS church's extra-biblical scriptures (Mormons abide by the Bible and the Book of Mormon). Mormons also reject the professions of faith, or Christian creeds, that are recited on Sundays in many Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant churches.
But the Stokes case raises another issue: Do Scout leaders or coaches of sports teams have to pass the same religious tests as, say, Sunday school teachers, if those troops and teams are chartered by houses of worship?
Packs at other churches
No is the answer at many churches, including Charlotte's largest - St. Matthew Catholic, with 28,000 members.
"We have Scout leaders of many faiths at St. Matthew," said Mike Nielsen, Scoutmaster of Boy Scout Troop 8. "Other than the Scoutmaster - that one job, which goes to a Catholic - I've never heard any mention of the faith of other (Cub Scout and Boy Scout) leaders."
But at Christ Covenant - the largest Presbyterian Church of America church in the Carolinas, with 600 families - the answer is yes.
"Boy Scouts is a ministry of our church," said Sylvia, the church's pastor for Christian Education and Young Families. "We want to insure that what (Scout leaders) believe is consistent with our denominational viewpoint."
For Sylvia, that at least means that Scout leaders must believe in the Apostles' Creed - a profession of faith dating back to the early centuries of Christianity.
Stelle Snyder, the spokeswoman for Christ Covenant, said it could even extend beyond that. A decade ago, she said, the church had to say no to a Catholic dad who wanted to coach one of the church's sports teams. Catholics, she said, often stress good works as the road to salvation more than many Protestants, who emphasize grace. And she said it's part of the role of coaches in her church's sports outreach program to share Bible stories.
"From the standpoint of ministering and representing the church, those people (coaches and Scout leaders) need to be on the same page," Snyder said. "In practice and intent, this is not meant to be unwelcome, unpleasant or unnecessarily legalistic. It's all for positive reasons. And it's not that Mormons have been singled out."
Turner, executive director of Mecklenburg's Boy Scouts Council, said Christ Covenant is within its rights as a chartering organization to apply additional leadership qualifications, as long as it also honors those the Boy Scouts insist on.
Some of the Boy Scouts' national guidelines have also been controversial and, to some, discriminatory. Because the Boy Scout pledge includes fealty to God and country, no atheists and agnostics can be members or leaders. Neither can homosexuals.
In Mecklenburg, Turner estimates 150 houses of worship charter Boy Scout troops and/or Cub Scout packs - a greater number than those sponsored by civic organizations, neighborhoods, and other groups.
Asked if other houses of worship apply theological tests for their Scouting leaders, Turner said he didn't know. "We're not asking that question out there," he said.
Should they?
"I think it's a good question," Turner said. "Scout leaders are mentors to young people, whether they're 7 years old or 13 years old. If that charter organization feels strongly about that and says our mission is to achieve 'X' objective through scouting, then it's OK for them to set these parameters."
Blatant racial discrimination would be another story, he said, with the council reserving the right to revoke any group's charter.
As for the Stokes family, Turner said, what happened was "unfortunate... We in the Boy Scouts want everybody - the whole family - to have a great experience, not a bad experience."
Stokes find Scouting home
Though the family pulled their sons out of the Christ Covenant scouting program, they have since signed up their 8-year-old for the smaller Cub Scout pack chartered by their Mormon ward in Weddington. The bishop has named Jeremy Stokes the pack Cubmaster and Jodi Stokes chair of the Scout committee.
"My little guy (the 6-year-old) can't join, so he tags along," his mother said.
Nationally, the Mormon church has a close relationship with the Boy Scouts of America. What is the Mormon church's rules about appointing Scout leaders?
Mormon Bishop Rowlan, who heads the Stokes' Weddington church, would not say whether he would be open to naming a non-Mormon as a Scouting leader.
"I'd have to take each one on an individual basis," he said, adding that that is the policy of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
At Christ Covenant, meanwhile, Rev. Sylvia and spokeswoman Snyder said the Stokes case will prompt the church to clarify policies that were always understood, but not necessarily written down.
"There's a need for us to be much more specific, so that it's clear whoever is in a leadership position is consistent with what Christ Covenant teaches," said Snyder.
because it was completely approps.
“Mormonism is a ninteenth century invention based upon the teachings of Alexander Campbell...”
Absolutely wrong. Alexander Campbell was the polar opposite of Mormonism and he exposed it. Read this article by Campbell himself: http://www.lds-mormon.com/campbell.shtml
Again, I understand that verse, but it doesn’t related to a organizational decision.
Mormons have no knowledge of the G-d of Israel, you do understand that right?
“I have a picture of Jesus in my living room.”
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Looking very much like the picture they also have of Joey Smith in their living room...
Wondered how long it would be before you would grace this thread with your presence. When can we expect the Shrew? Have you not twittered her yet?
Most likely to Iraq. When Adam and Eve were ejected
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
from Eden they went to the East of Eden.
The Stokes were told their sons were welcome to join, and that they could volunteer. But as practicing Mormons, they couldn’t be leaders.
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Thats a better deal than the mormons give Christian families...
Non-mormon boys cant join the mormon packs..
Try again. Go back and re-read our convo.
I made a comment about the wife being upset because they don’t consider her Christian even though she has a picutre of Jesus on her wall.
You responded with some Christians have pictures of Jesus on their wall.
Then we discussed if Mormons are Christians. I argued NO because of their beliefs, you stated that was just my opinion (which it is not) and NOW you are changing the subject.
BSA also recognized other Non Christian groups, just because Moromons are in BSA doesn’t make them Christian anymore than a muslim in BSA would be a Christian.
Mormons are NOT Christian based upon their beliefs.
And, yes, I agree you are confused.
As you’re probably aware, there are plenty of ways to get involved so you too can have a blast. One of the easiest is to offer to drive to and from the outings. ;^)
I’ve found that some accept the calling without realizing what they’re expected to do, or even how to do it.
I’ve talked with many leaders and plead with them to create a “continuity book” that has as much starting information as they can cram into a 3 inch 3 ring binder. Names, phone numbers, websites, training courses to take/attend, manuals, etc.
This would at least give the new SM/ASMs a fighting chance to be somewhat successful.
The training problem is one of my peeves. We’ve reached out to many LdS units in our District and offered training or notify them when training is taking place and very few respond or attend. I’ve gotten to the point where I have LdS Scouters as District trainers and send them out to individual wards to get the training done. We’ve had some minor success.
We’re running at about 30% trained, up from about 20% a year or so ago, for LdS leaders, but it’s not rising fast enough IMO. It’s tough when many get turned over quickly.
As you said, it depends on the people. But there are some small steps that can be taken to help their programs. We’re still trying. It’s for the boys afterall, they’re the ones with the most to gain/lose.
When can we expect the Shrew? Have you not twittered her yet?
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Resty will show up when she wants to...
As for Twitter...
I dont do Twitter...
Nor FaceAcheBook...
Foolishness. Where does it say that? Besides in your own closed mind?
When can we expect the Shrew? Have you not twittered her yet?
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Resty will show up when she wants to...
As for Twitter...
I dont do Twitter...
Nor FaceAcheBook...
I never said the Catholic church hasn’t covered up abuse, they have. I was responding to the Ken’s comment about leaving the Catholics for the Mormons. Mormonism is just as guility as the Catholics.
Frying pan into the fire. At least Catholics believe traditional Christian doctrine.
Same can’t be said for the LDS.
Sorry Nana, I have to disagree here.
Thank you. (I think?)
So you think that if a person applying for a leadership position puts down that he is a member of a Metropolitan Community Church and believes in the god of that church, that he'd be eligible as a Boy Scout leader?
Nope. The MCC is a church catering to homosexuals. Boy Scouts of America tends to frown on that.
Now that's a national standard. Since churches are legally responsible for what goes on inside their doors and on campouts, the 'Scouts leave it up to churches to filter its leadership.
Ripliancum has already said on this thread that the LDS church treats the BS as an adjunct part of the church; and that it's integral to what the church does (substitute youth program). So if they treat it as a "ministry," on what grounds are you objecting that the Presbyterians do as well?
Hence, Mormons in effect treat it as part of their "calling" and an extension of their priesthood roles. And this church likewise treats it as ministry. Don't forget that all ministry is not simply formal ministry...and that a lot of informal interaction goes on between leaders and scouts/cubs, especially on outings.
Also, just even who a church sanctions as a leader sends a message to kids. If a Christian church is telling the world that a polytheist, necro-baptizing, protective underwear-weearing, cemetery-record obsessive is "the" key to a "faith life" then what kind of a message are our kids getting?
Its not me that is “closed”
It is the mormon CEOs that decided to be exclusive...
So as you would say your mormon CEOs are “foolish”
Why dont you dare get in their faces if you dont like it ???
Oh yeah there is the unconservative “sustaining” that you have to do...
Oh well
Never mind...
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