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The Catholic Venture of Christopher Columbus
Catholicism.org ^ | June 05th, 2008 | The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary

Posted on 10/11/2010 6:58:32 PM PDT by Salvation

The Catholic Venture of Christopher Columbus

When writing to the people of the United States in 1895, Pope Leo XIII observed: “The names newly given to so many of your towns and rivers and lakes teach and clearly witness how deeply your beginnings were marked with the footprints of the Catholic Church.” How true it is! For there are countless hundreds of cities, towns, and other landmarks bearing the names of great saints of the Church that testify to the inestimable apostolic labors of her sons and daughters in America.

Although his “footprint” was not the first, of a mission-minded Catholic on these shores, the first lasting impress made on our soil was by the much-maligned and under-appreciated Christopher Columbus. We present here a brief rundown of the Catholic venture of this noble Genoan.

Pre-Columbian Ventures

First, we confront the uncertainty and confusion surrounding the discovery of America. For the very name “America” credits Amerigo Vespucci with the discovery of the continent. This was an error, of course, as the historians later realized. (But by the queer chance of their mistake it also happens that the entire Western Hemisphere, as a result, was inadvertently given the name of the great Saint Emeric of Hungary, who was Vespucci’s patron saint.)

Later historians, eager perhaps to shadow the apostolic motives of Catholic explorers, insisted that the Vikings were the first to sail to our shores. Yet, they ignore the fact that when the pagan Norsemen discovered Iceland in the Eighth Century, there they found crosses, bells, sacred vessels, and other Catholic artifacts of Irish craftsmanship. Upon returning to Norway from their long voyages, these hardy sailors found that the idols of Scandinavia had been hurled to the dust. The king had embraced the true Faith and the whole people had renounced paganism. When the Nordics, therefore, set out again for their new-found lands, they brought Catholicism with them this time, Hence we learn that the Viking explorers Bjorn and Leif were Catholics, not pagans, and that after their discovery of the American shores, missionaries immediately offered to come here to preach the Gospel to the savage inhabitants.

But having mentioned that the Catholic Irish had preceded the Norsemen to Iceland, we must also note that likewise they were the earliest explorers of our Atlantic coast. In fact, it is recorded that Saint Brendan the Navigator, the patron saint of seamen, had sailed to the American continent in the sixth century, some two hundred years before the Vikings.

1492 and All That

Now we come to the part with which more of us are familiar. On the second of August in the year 1492 three ships, the Niña , the Pinta , and the Santa Maria (Holy Mary1 ), carrying one hundred and twenty men set sail from the shores of Spain. Their objective was twofold: to find a westerly route to the Far East, where they hoped to obtain a source of revenue to rebuild their poor country so long ravaged by Moslem invaders; and most importantly to bring the true Faith of Christ to pagans of those distant lands. The leader of this brave band, of course, was Christopher Columbus, a native of Genoa, and the only Italian among this crew of Spaniards and Portuguese.

Columbus had begun sailing the seas as a boy of fourteen and over the years had acquired a notable skill in navigation and astronomy. He is said to have sailed as far as Guinea when he was sixteen years of age. For some time he and his brother had pondered the idea of reaching the East Indies by sailing westward, and it was the hope of executing this idea that brought Christopher to Portugal in 1471. He presented his plan to the King of Portugal, but meeting with no success he set off for Spain in 1485. Twice he petitioned King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella — Los Reyes Católicos 2 — to support his venture, but due to the influence of royal advisers who thought his plan absurd, he was politely dismissed.

Enter the Franciscans

Dejected and practically reduced to begging, Columbus accepted the hospitality of a Franciscan monastery.3 The Prior, Father Juan Perez, happened to be the Queen’s confessor and he took a strong interest in the extraordinarily zealous seafarer. (It was Father Perez who later was to celebrate the first Mass in America — on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception.) This good priest had a friend at the King’s court, Louis de Santangel (who would be put in charge of all Church revenues for Columbus’ design) and the two men were able to convince the Queen of the project’s merit, particularly since the Church was prepared to help in financing the first expedition. We can clearly understand the Church’s interest in the venture when we see the compelling argument that Columbus offered to explain its purpose: “. . . To carry the Name and doctrine of Jesus Christ into regions so distant.” Permission was obtained from the Catholic Kings and preparations were soon under way.

Christopher also presented his plan to Pope Alexander VI in letter, hoping to secure missionaries accompany him on the journey. He wrote: “I trust that by God’s help, I may spread the Holy Name and Gospel of Jesus Christ as widely as possible.” The Pope granted his request on the second and other subsequent expeditions.

A Rough Voyage

Knowing that a plenary indulgence would be gained by all who received Holy Communion on the Feast of Our Lady of the Angels, August second, the courageous explorer-missioner chose that date for his departure. Every one of the crew approached the Communion rail that morning and, after invoking the protection of the Queen of Heaven, they set out for a historic destiny.

The men suffered considerably from the grueling experience of being many weeks at sea in the turbulence of unknown waters. Fear and uncertainty began to take hold of them. Two months passed and still there was no land to be seen. The crew grew all the more restless and insisted that their captain return back. Still confident, however, Columbus countered their fears with a proposition: If no land were sighted by the Feast of Our Lady of the Pillar, October twelfth, he would reverse their course. This was a persuasive appeal even to these much frightened Iberian sailors, because the Feast commemorated the day on which the Blessed Virgin appeared to Saint James the Greater, Apostle of Spain, and reassured him that, in spite of his apparent failure in that country, his work eventually would bring forth tremendous fruits for the Church. The men agreed to this offer, and as a reward for their faith, land was sighted — on the very day of the great Feast. Their total number of days at sea had been seventy-two — precisely the number of years that the Mother of God spent on earth.

The first act of Columbus upon setting foot on this new land was to set up the standard of the Cross and claim it in the Name of Jesus Christ. He gratefully named the first island he arrived at “San Salvador” (Holy Savior), by which it is still known today, despite the fact that the Masons succeeded for a time in having its name changed to Watling’s Island.

After a brief rest he set sail again, and on Christmas Day he disembarked on the northern coast of what is now Haiti, establishing the first European settlement in the New World, which he called La Navidad (The Nativity). Columbus, by securing the friendship of the natives, was able to learn from them that a large island lay not far away, and that beyond it was a huge body of land. And so, leaving sixty of his men there, he started out on his return course to Spain, bringing with him the news of the existence of the American continent.

The “Spreading of Catholicism”

The apostolic navigator was welcomed back to Spain with jubilation. His news was received enthusiastically by the Catholic Kings, not merely because it promised economic relief for their suffering country, but primarily because they had learned that the natives of the new land were well disposed to receive the gift of Faith. The pious queen addressed Christopher with these words: “The expenses we have incurred, and are about to incur for the Indian expeditions, have been well bestowed; for these will ensure a spreading of Catholicism.” How well Queen Isabella had described the holy explorer when she had said that he would have boldly thrust himself upon a vast ocean “to achieve a most signal thing for the sake of the Divine Glory.” Surely he was worthy of such praise, as is confirmed by his words to a friend upon his return: “Immortal thanks should be rendered to God, Who had brought His labors such prosperous issues; that Jesus Christ rejoices and triumphs on earth no less than in heaven, at the approaching salvation of nations innumerable that were before hastening to destruction.”

There were those who were unimpressed with the prospects of further voyages and who tried to dissuade the fatigued Columbus from undertaking further expeditions. Were they right, he wondered? How could he know what to do? The seafarer decided to make a spiritual retreat at the Franciscan Monastery. After imploring the help of the Blessed Mother, he emerged fortified with grace and determined to continue his apostolic explorations. And so in September of 1493, Christopher set sail again, this time in a vessel called The Gracious Mary , accompanied by thirteen ships and fifteen hundred men. And again, the Blessed Trinity was invoked for the protection of the journey, during which the Angelus faithfully was recited three times every day.

A new settlement was established on this expedition, and the first fortress in the New World was erected and named in honor of Saint Thomas the Apostle. It was also on this voyage that Columbus discovered a group of small islands south of San Salvador, which he called the Virgin Islands, in honor of the 11,010 virgins who martyred with Saint Ursula at Cologne in 383.

The venerable missionary of the seas returned to Spain in 1496, but promptly launched out again in May of that year to explore the Canary Islands and others in that area. In July he came upon a very large body of land, which he named Trinidad (Trinity), and sailing westward from thence he at last landed on the mainland of South America.

In all, Christopher Columbus led four excursions from the shores of Spain to America. It was on his fourth expedition that his great apostolic career finally ended. After suffering tempests, shipwreck, grave illness and exhaustion, as will as mutiny from his own settlers, he was put on board a ship heading back to Spain, and there in his adopted homeland he died.

This courageous explorer deserves our highest admiration and praise not only for his discovery of our American continents, but for his unquenchable zeal in bringing the Catholic Faith to distant corners of the globe, that men might know the way to salvation.

Pope Leo XIII wrote in praise of Christopher Columbus: “By his toil . . . hundreds of thousands of mortals have, from a state of blindness, been raised to the common level of the human race, reclaimed from savagery to gentleness and humanity, and, greatest of all, by the acquisition of those blessings of which Jesus Christ is the Author, they have been recalled from destruction to eternal life.”


1 The full name of this flagship was “Holy Mary of the Immaculate Conception,” a most fitting name not only because Mary is the Star of the Sea (Stella Maris ), but more significantly because it was to the Immaculate Conception that the United States was to be consecrated in the year 1846.

2 “The Catholic Monarchs” (or “Catholic Kings”), as the two were known.

3 It should be recalled that Columbus was a Third Order Franciscan, as were many other notables in history, including Dante and Saint Louis IX, of France.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
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To: BenKenobi
“Romans? It’s never been the teaching of the church that there is no salvation outside of it. Extra ecclesium nulla salus is wrong. Salvation is by the grace of God through faith in Christ. God decides, and not men.”

And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Mathew 16: 18 - 19

This goes to the heart of the argument. It is an absolute FACT that the Catholic Church has consistently taught that only Through Christ and union with the one true Church The Roman Catholic Church or Eastern Orthodox Church, could a soul be saved from eternal damnation. I am not saying I agree, it is simply a FACT.

The Church has changed it's teaching, actually modified it, over the course of the last century. However, the idea of proselytizing and missionary work revolved around the conversion of people to allow them the orotund of eternal life in communion with Christ.

Just so you are aware, I will give you a short list of the literal thousands of examples of quotes attributed to leaders of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches backing this statement. The original saying by Saint Cyprian of Carthage (3rd century AD) is found his Letter LXXII, Ad Jubajanum de haereticis baptizandis, and in Latin reads: "Salus extra ecclesiam non est".[3] Fourth Lateran Council (1215): "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam sanctam (1302): "We are compelled in virtue of our faith to believe and maintain that there is only one holy Catholic Church, and that one is apostolic. This we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins, the Spouse in the Canticle proclaiming: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. One is she of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her' (Canticle of Canticles 6:8); which represents the one mystical body whose head is Christ, of Christ indeed, as God. And in this, 'one Lord, one faith, one baptism' (Ephesians 4:5). Certainly Noah had one ark at the time of the flood, prefiguring one Church which perfect to one cubit having one ruler and guide, namely Noah, outside of which we read all living things were destroyed… We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." Pope Boniface I, Epistle 14.1: "It is clear that this Roman Church is to all churches throughout the world as the head is to the members, and that whoever separates himself from it becomes an exile from the Christian religion, since he ceases to belong to its fellowship." Pope Pelagius II (578-590): "Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord… Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness… Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned… [If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church" (Denzinger, 469). Saint Gregory the Great (590-604), Moralia: "Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved." Pope Sylvester II, Profession of Faith, June AD 991: "I believe that in Baptism all sins are forgiven, that one which was committed originally as much as those which are voluntarily committed, and I profess that outside the Catholic Church no one is saved." Pope Innocent III (1198–1216), Profession of Faith prescribed for the Waldensians: "With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved" (Denzinger 792). Pope Clement VI, Letter Super Quibusdam (to Consolator the Catholicos of Armenia), September 20, 1351: "In the second place, we ask whether you and the Armenians obedient to you believe that no man of the wayfarers outside of the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience of the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved… In the ninth place, if you have believed and do believe that all who have raised themselves against the faith of the Roman Church and have died in final impenitence have been damned and have descended to the eternal punishments of hell." Pope Leo XII (1823–1829), Encyclical Ubi Primum: "It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth Itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members. For we have a surer word of the prophet, and in writing to you We speak wisdom among the perfect; not the wisdom of this world but the wisdom of God in a mystery. By it we are taught, and by divine faith we hold, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and that no other name under heaven is given to men except the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth in which we must be saved. This is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church… For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: 'If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'" Pope Gregory XVI (1831–1846), Encyclical Summo Jugiter Studio (on mixed marriages), 5-6, May 27, 1832: "You know how zealously Our predecessors taught that very article of faith which these dare to deny, namely the necessity of the Catholic faith and of unity for salvation. The words of that celebrated disciple of the Apostles, martyred Saint Ignatius, in his letter to the Philadelphians are relevant to this matter: 'Be not deceived, my brother; if anyone follows a schismatic, he will not attain the inheritance of the kingdom of God.' Moreover, Saint Augustine and the other African bishops who met in the Council of Cirta in the year 412 explained the same thing at greater length: 'Whoever has separated himself from the Catholic Church, no matter how laudably he lives, will not have eternal life, but has earned the anger of God because of this one crime: that he abandoned his union with Christ' (Epsitle 141). Omitting other appropriate passages which are almost numberless in the writings of the Fathers, We shall praise Saint Gregory the Great, who expressly testifies that this is indeed the teaching of the Catholic Church. He says: 'The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved' (Moral. in Job, 16.5). Official acts of the Church proclaim the same dogma. Thus, in the decree on faith which Innocent III published with the synod of the Lateran IV, these things are written: 'There is one universal Church of the faithful outside of which no one at all is saved.' Finally, the same dogma is expressly mentioned in the profession of faith proposed by the Apostolic See, not only that which all Latin churches use (Creed of the Council of Trent), but also that which the Greek Orthodox Church uses (cf. Gregory XIII, Profession 'Sanctissimus') and that which other Eastern Catholics use (cf. Benedict XIV, Profession 'Nuper ad Nos')… We are so concerned about this serious and well known dogma, which has been attacked with such remarkable audacity, that We could not restrain Our pen from reinforcing this truth with many testimonies." Pope Pius IX (1846–1878), Allocution Singulari Quadem, December 9, 1854: "Not without sorrow we have learned that another error, no less destructive, has taken possession of some parts of the Catholic world, and has taken up its abode in the souls of many Catholics who think that one should have good hope of the eternal salvation of all those who have never lived in the true Church of Christ. Therefore, they are wont to ask very often what will be the lot and condition of those who have not submitted in any way to the Catholic faith, and, by bringing forward most vain reasons, they make a response favorable to their false opinion. Far be it from Us, Venerable Brethren, to presume on the limits of the divine mercy which is infinite; far from Us, to wish to scrutinize the hidden counsel and "judgements of God" which are "a great abyss" (Ps. 35.7) and cannot be penetrated by human thought. But, as is Our Apostolic Duty, we wish your episcopal solicitude and vigilance to be aroused, so that you will strive as much as you can to drive form the mind of men that impious and equally fatal opinion, namely, that the way of eternal salvation can be found in any religion whatsoever. May you demonstrate with skill and learning in which you excel, to the people entrusted to your care that the dogmas of the Catholic faith are in no wise opposed to divine mercy and justice. "For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, will not be held guilty of this in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For, in truth, when released from these corporeal chains 'we shall see God as He is' (1 John 3.2), we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is "one God, one faith, one baptism" (Eph. 4.5); it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry. "But, just as the way of charity demands, let us pour forth continual prayers that all nations everywhere may be converted to Christ; and let us be devoted to the common salvation of men in proportion to our strength, 'for the hand of the Lord is not shortened' (Isa. 9.1) and the gifts of heavenly grace will not be wanting to those who sincerely wish and ask to be refreshed by this light."[4] Pope Pius IX (1846–1878), Encyclical Singulari Quidem March 17, 1856): "Teach that just as there is only one God, one Christ, one Holy Spirit, so there is also only one truth which is divinely revealed. There is only one divine faith which is the beginning of salvation for mankind and the basis of all justification, the faith by which the just person lives and without which it is impossible to please God and come to the community of His children (Romans 1; Hebrews 11; Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 8). There is only one true, holy, Catholic Church, which is the Apostolic Roman Church. There is only one See founded on Peter by the word of the Lord (St. Cyprian, Epistle 43), outside of which we cannot find either true faith or eternal salvation. He who does not have the Church for a mother cannot have God for a father, and whoever abandons the See of Peter on which the Church is established trusts falsely that he is in the Church (ibid, On the Unity of the Catholic Church). ... Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control."[5] Pope Pius IX (1846–1878), Encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore, August 10, 1863: "And here, beloved Sons and Venerable Brothers, We should mention again and censure a very grave error in which some Catholics are unhappily engaged, who believe that men living in error, and separated from the true faith and from Catholic unity, can attain eternal life. Indeed, this is certainly quite contrary to Catholic teaching. It is known to Us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, can, by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life, since God who clearly beholds, searches, and knows the minds, souls, thoughts, and habits of all men, because of His great goodness and mercy, will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin. But, the Catholic dogma that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church is well-known; and also that those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the same Church, and who persistently separate themselves from the unity of the Church, and from the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter, to whom 'the guardianship of the vine has been entrusted by the Savior,' (Council of Chalcedon, Letter to Pope Leo I) cannot obtain eternal salvation. The words of Christ are clear enough: 'And if he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican' (Matthew 18:17); 'He that heareth you, heareth Me; and he that dispeth you, despiseth Me; and he that dispiseth Me, despiseth Him that sent Me' (Luke 10:16); 'He that believeth not shall be condemned' (Mark 16:16); 'He that doth not believe, is already judged' (John 3:18); 'He that is not with Me, is against Me; and he that gathereth not with Me, scattereth' (Luke 11:23). The Apostle Paul says that such persons are 'perverted and self-condemned' (Titus 3:11); the Prince of the Apostles calls the 'false prophets… who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction' (2 Peter 2:1)."[6] Pope Pius IX The Syllabus of Errors, attached to Encyclical Quanta Cura, 1864: [The following are prescribed errors:] "16. Men can, in the cult of any religion, find the way of eternal salvation and attain eternal salvation. - Encyclical Qui pluribus, November 9, 1846. "17. One ought to at least have good hope for the eternal salvation of all those who in no way dwell in the true Church of Christ. - Encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore, August 10, 1863, etc." Pope Leo XIII (1878–1903), Encyclical Annum Ingressi Sumus: "This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God's commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church." idem, Encyclical Sapientiae Christianae: "He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God." Pope St. Pius X (1903–1914), Encyclical Jucunda Sane: "It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation." Pope Benedict XV (1914–1922), Encyclical Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum: "Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved." Pope Pius XI (1922–1939), Encyclical Mortalium Animos: "The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation… Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors." Pope Pius XII (1939–1958), Encyclical Humani Generis, August 12, 1950: "Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation." Pope Pius XII (1939–1958), Allocution to the Gregorian University (17 October 1953): "By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth."

21 posted on 10/12/2010 12:07:08 AM PDT by Jim from C-Town (The government is rarely benevolent, often malevolent and never benign!)
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To: Salvation

I love this account. However, I read a compelling argument in The Smithsonian (I think) claiming that Columbus was a Jew a few years ago. That does not jibe with this story. I hope that this is the true story because I’ve always been fond of Columbus.


22 posted on 10/12/2010 4:30:25 AM PDT by afraidfortherepublic (Southeast Wisconsin, Zone 4 to 5)
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To: afraidfortherepublic

He may have had some coversio blood. He was not Jewish.


23 posted on 10/12/2010 6:33:35 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Jim from C-Town

Oh, my, where are the paragraphs?


24 posted on 10/12/2010 7:50:11 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Yeah, they didn’t transfer well.

No paragraphs...good luck reading that!


25 posted on 10/12/2010 9:27:45 AM PDT by Jim from C-Town (The government is rarely benevolent, often malevolent and never benign!)
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To: redgolum

I never believed it, but someone has been peddling that story for the last 10 years, at least.


26 posted on 10/12/2010 9:54:18 AM PDT by afraidfortherepublic (Southeast Wisconsin, Zone 4 to 5)
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To: Jim from C-Town

“This goes to the heart of the argument. It is an absolute FACT that the Catholic Church has consistently taught that only Through Christ and union with the one true Church The Roman Catholic Church or Eastern Orthodox Church, could a soul be saved from eternal damnation.”

Indeed. I am not suggesting otherwise. All I am saying is that faith in Christ and membership in the Catholic church is a sufficient condition for salvation, but not a necessary condition. It is enough to believe in Christ and be in union with his Church. However the Church does not teach that anyone who is outside is condemned to damnation.

Romans 2:14-17

“For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;

In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”

“I am not saying I agree, it is simply a FACT.”

It’s not a fact. The Church has never taught that this is so. You argue that the mission to spread the Gospel to the world was in fact motivated by this desire, but would not the Great Commission be sufficient motivation? Make disciples of all nations. Christ commanded you.

“The Church has changed it’s teaching, actually modified it, over the course of the last century.”

Yet the Gospel teaches contrary to your assertion. I contend that the Church has always taught that those outside the Church may obtain salvation for God is sovereign and men are not. God will save those whom he will save, and the Church is his instrument here on Earth. But to assert that he is limited to the Church is to deny his power into the hearts of men.

Romans explicitly says that he judges all, the righteous and the wicked. How can this be so? Because he has written on all of our hearts, our conscience, which ascertains for us the contents of his Law, even if we have not full understanding.

“However, the idea of proselytizing and missionary work revolved around the conversion of people to allow them the orotund of eternal life in communion with Christ.”

It comes from the Great Commission, “go and make therefore disciples of all the nation”. It does not say believers, it says ‘disciples’! To work for the hand of God.

“Just so you are aware, I will give you a short list of the literal thousands of examples of quotes attributed to leaders of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches backing this statement.”

You strive mightily against the Goads.

“The original saying by Saint Cyprian of Carthage (3rd century AD) is found his Letter LXXII, Ad Jubajanum de haereticis baptizandis, and in Latin reads: “Salus extra ecclesiam non est”.

Yes, but the Church took the Augustinian position and not that of St. Cyprian, which held that those unbaptised may still be saved.

“Certainly Noah had one ark at the time of the flood, prefiguring one Church which perfect to one cubit having one ruler and guide”

Yet the Church believes that Noah has been preserved. Otherwise this analogy makes sense. Yes, the Church is the vessel of Christ, and all those who are believers ought to be members of the Church. But it is a sufficient condition, and God can and will save those who are outside.


27 posted on 10/14/2010 10:05:05 AM PDT by BenKenobi ("Henceforth I will call nothing else fair unless it be her gift to me")
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