Lds Conference Talk October 1984-By Ronald E. Poelman-Mormon (OPEN)

lds-mormon.com ^ | October, 1984 | Ronald E. Poelman

[greyfoxx39]

When SOME OF THE LEADERS SPEAK, the thinking has been done...and then again......Through the miracle of modern technology, a conference talk focused on the importance of free agency turned into a conference talk focused on the importance of obedience and the fabric of time itself was altered such that the original conference talk turned out to have not ever existed and anyone who thought they had heard something else must have been listening to the influence of evil spirits.

The Gospel and the Church
By Ronald E. Poelman
The First Quorum of the Seventy
General Conference October, 1984

Two different version of this talk were distributed. The first was given over the pulpit at general conference, the second was published in the Ensign and on the official conference videotape. Differences between the two talks are highlighted in red. Deletions from the original talk are set off by strikethrough Font, while additions in the Ensign version are Underlined.

 

Conference Version	Version Published in the Ensign and on Video Tape
Both the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ are true and divine.	Both the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ are true and divine,
However, there is a distinction between them which is significant and it is very important that this distinction be understood.	and there is an essential relationship between them that is significant and very important.
Of equal importance is understanding the essential relationship between the gospel and the Church. Failure to distinguish between the two and to comprehend their proper relationship may lead to confusion and misplaced priorities with unrealistic and therefore failed expectations. This in turn may result in diminished benefits and blessings and, in extreme instances, even disaffections.	Understanding the proper relationship between the gospel and the Church will prevent confusion, misplaced priorities, and failed expectations and will lead to the realization of gospel goals through happy, fulfilling participation in the Church. Such understanding will avoid possible disaffection and will result in great personal blessings.
As I attempt to describe and comment upon some distinguishing characteristics of the gospel and of the Church, at the same time noting their essential relationships, it is my prayer that a perspective may be developed which will enhance the influence of both the gospel and the Church in our lives.	As I attempt to describe and comment upon the essential relationship between the gospel and the Church it is my prayer that a perspective may be developed which will enhance the influence of both the gospel and the Church in our lives.
The gospel of Jesus Christ is a divine and perfect plan. It is composed of eternal, unchanging principles and laws which are universally applicable to every individual regardless of time, place, or circumstance.	The gospel of Jesus Christ is a divine and perfect plan. It is composed of eternal, unchanging principles, laws, and ordinances which are universally applicable to every individual regardless of time, place, or circumstance.
The principles and laws of the gospel never change.	Gospel principles never change.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a divine institution administered by the priesthood of God.	The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the kingdom of God on Earth administered by the priesthood of God.
The Church has authority to teach correctly the principles and doctrines of the gospel and to administer its essential ordinances.	The Church has the authority to teach correctly the principles and doctrines of the gospel and to administer its essential ordinances.
The gospel is the substance of the divine plan for personal, individual salvation and exaltation. The Church is the delivery system that provides the means and resources to implement this plan in each individual's life.	The gospel is the divine plan for personal, individual salvation and exaltation. The Church is divinely commissioned to provide the means and resources that implement this plan in each individual's life.
Procedures programs and policies are developed within the Church to help us realize gospel blessings according to our individual capacity and circumstances. Under divine direction, these policies, programs, and procedures do change from time to time as necessary to fulfill gospel purposes.	Procedures programs and policies are developed within the Church to help us realize gospel blessings according to our individual capacity and circumstances. Under divine direction, these policies, programs, and procedures may be changed from time to time as necessary to fulfill gospel purposes.
Underlying every aspect of Church administration and activity are the revealed eternal principles as contained in the scriptures. .	Underlying every aspect of Church administration and activity are the revealed eternal principles as contained in the scriptures.
As individually and collectively we increase our knowledge, acceptance, and application of gospel principles, we become less dependent on Church programs. Our lives become gospel centered.	As individually and collectively we increase our knowledge, acceptance, and application of gospel principles, we can more effectively utilize the Church to make our lives more gospel centered.
Sometimes traditions, customs, social practices and personal preferences of individual Church members may, through repeated or common usage be misconstrued as Church procedures or policies. Occasionally, such traditions, customs and practices may even be regarded by some as eternal gospel principles. Under such circumstances those who do not conform to these cultural standards may mistakenly be regarded as unorthodox or even unworthy. In fact, the eternal principles of the gospel and the divinely inspired Church do accommodate a broad spectrum of individual uniqueness and cultural diversity.	The eternal principles of the gospel implemented through the divinely inspired Church apply to a wide variety of individuals in diverse cultures.
The conformity we require should be according to God's standards.	Therefore, as we live the gospel and participate in the Church, the conformity we require of ourselves and of others should be according to God's standards.
The orthodoxy upon which we insist must be founded in fundamental principles and eternal law, including free agency and the divine uniqueness of the individual.	The orthodoxy upon which we insist must be founded in fundamental principles, eternal law, and direction given by those authorized in the Church.
It is important therefore to know the difference between eternal gospel principles which are unchanging, universally applicable and cultural norms which may vary with time and circumstance.
The source of this perspective is found in the scriptures and may appear to be presented in a rather unorganized and untidy format.	A necessary perspective is gained by studying and pondering the scriptures.
The Lord could have presented the gospel to us in a manual, systematically organized by subject, perhaps using examples and illustrations.
However the eternal principles and divine laws of God are revealed to us through accounts of individual lives in a variety of circumstances and conditions.
Reading the scriptures, we learn the gospel as it is taught by various messengers at different times and places.	Reading the scriptures, we learn the gospel as it is taught by various prophets in a variety of circumstances, times, and places.
We see the consequences as it is accepted or rejected, as its principles are applied or not to varying degrees and by many different people.	We see the consequences as the gospel is accepted or rejected by individuals and as its principles are applied or not.
In the scriptures we discover that varying institutional forms, procedures and regulations and ceremonies are utilized, all divinely designed to implement eternal principles. The practices and procedures change; the principles do not.	In the scriptures we discover that varying institutional forms, procedures and regulations and ceremonies were utilized, all divinely designed to implement eternal principles. The practices and procedures change; the principles do not.
Through scripture study we may learn eternal principles and how to distinguish them from and relate them to institutional resources.
As we liken the scriptures unto ourselves we can better utilize the institutional resources of the modern restored Church to learn, live and share the gospel of Jesus Christ.	As we liken the scriptures unto ourselves we can better utilize the institutional resources of the modern restored Church to learn, live and share the gospel of Jesus Christ.
A favorite scriptural source for is the Old Testament Book of Leviticus.	A favorite scriptural source for is the Old Testament Book of Leviticus.
It is basically a handbook for Hebrew priests and contains many rules, regulations, rituals and ceremonies which seem strange and inapplicable to us.	It is basically a handbook for Hebrew priests and contains many rules, regulations, rituals and ceremonies which seem strange and inapplicable to us.
It also contains eternal principles of the gospel which are familiar and very much applicable to everyone.	It also contains eternal principles of the gospel which are familiar and very much applicable to everyone.
It is interesting and enlightening to read the 19th chapter of Leviticus, noting both the principles and the rules and practices.	It is interesting and enlightening to read the 19th chapter of Leviticus, noting both the principles and the rules and practices.
In the first two verses we read, "And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel....." (Leviticus 19: 1-2)	In the first two verses we read, "And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel....." (Leviticus 19: 1-2)
Here is the principle of revelation.	Here is the principle of revelation.
God speaks to his children through prophets.	God speaks to his children through prophets.
He does so today.	He does so today.
Continuing, the Lord says to Moses, "....say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the Lord your God am holy." (Leviticus 19:2)	Continuing, the Lord says to Moses, "....say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the Lord your God am holy." (Leviticus 19:2)
Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount, said, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48) Here is an eternal gospel principle.	Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount, said, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48) Here is an eternal gospel principle.
There follow other eternal principles, some form the Ten Commandments.	There follow other eternal principles, some form the Ten Commandments.
Also included are rules and programs intended to implement these principles among the ancient Hebrews in their particular circumstances.	Also included are rules and programs intended to implement these principles among the ancient Hebrews in their particular circumstances.
For example, the divinely directed responsibility to care for the poor is taught. A program is presented, vis. providing food for the poor by leaving the gleanings of the crops and not reaping the corners of the fields. (Leviticus 19:9-10) Current programs to care for the poor are much different. The divine law is the same. Yet another principle underlies both programs, ancient and modern, i.e. those being assisted are given opportunity to participate in helping themselves to the extent of their capacity.	For example, the divinely directed responsibility to care for the poor is taught. A program is presented, vis. providing food for the poor by leaving the gleanings of the crops and not reaping the corners of the fields. (Leviticus 19:9-10) Current programs to care for the poor are much different. The divine law is the same. Yet another principle underlies both programs, ancient and modern, i.e. those being assisted are given opportunity to participate in helping themselves to the extent of their capacity.
In verse 13 the principle of honesty is taught accompanied by a rule requiring employers to pay employees for their work at the end of each day.	In verse 13 the principle of honesty is taught accompanied by a rule requiring employers to pay employees for their work at the end of each day.
Generally, today that rule is not necessary.	Generally, today that rule is not necessary.
The eternal principle of honesty is implemented by other rules and practices.	The eternal principle of honesty is implemented by other rules and practices.
Verse 27 contains a rule about personal grooming, it is clearly not applicable to us.	Verse 27 contains a rule about personal grooming, it is clearly not applicable to us.
However, we also have standards of dress and grooming.	However, we also have standards of dress and grooming.
Neither is an eternal principle; both are intended to help us implement and share gospel principles.	Neither is an eternal principle; both are intended to help us implement and share gospel principles.
The principle of forgiveness is set forth in the same chapter of Leviticus, verse 18, concluding with the second great commandment, "....thou shalt love they neighbor as thyself." with the added divine imprimatur, "...I am the Lord."	The principle of forgiveness is set forth in the same chapter of Leviticus, verse 18, concluding with the second great commandment, "....thou shalt love they neighbor as thyself." with the added divine imprimatur, "...I am the Lord."
Every church member has not only the opportunity, right, and privilege to receive a personal witness regarding gospel principles and Church practices, but has the need and obligation to obtain such assurance by exercising his free agency, thereby fulfilling one purpose of his mortal probation.	Every church member has the opportunity, right, and privilege to receive a personal witness regarding gospel principles and Church practices.
Without such assurance, one may feel confused and perhaps even burdened by what may appear to be simply institutional requirements of the Church.	Without such a witness, one may feel confused and perhaps even burdened by what may appear to be simply institutional requirements of the Church.
Indeed, it is not enough that we obey the commandments and counsel of Church leaders.	We should obey the commandments and counsel of Church leaders;
In response to study, prayer and by the influence of the Holy Spirit we may seek and obtain an individual, personal witness that the principle or counsel is correct and divinely inspired.	but also through study, through prayer, and by the influence of the Holy Spirit, we should seek and obtain an individual, personal witness that the principle or counsel is correct and divinely inspired.
Then we can give enlightened, enthusiastic obedience, utilizing the Church through which to give allegiance, time, talent and other resources without reluctance or resentment.	Then we can give enlightened, enthusiastic obedience, utilizing the Church through which to give allegiance, time, talent and other resources without reluctance or resentment.
Happy, fulfilling participation in the Church results when we relate institutional goals, programs and policies to gospel principles and to personal eternal goals.	Happy, fulfilling participation in the Church results when we relate Church goals, programs and policies to gospel principles and to personal eternal goals.
When we understand the difference between the gospel and the Church and the appropriate function of each in our daily lives, we are much more likely to do the right things for the right reasons.	When we see the harmony between the gospel and the Church in our daily lives, we are much more likely to do the right things for the right reasons.
Institutional discipline is replaced by self discipline.
Supervision is replaced by righteous initiative and a sense of divine accountability.	We will exercise self discipline and righteous initiative guided by Church leaders and a sense of divine accountability.
The Church aids us in our effort to use our free agency creatively, not to invent our own values and principles, but to discover and adopt the eternal truths of the gospel.	The Church aids us in our effort to use our free agency creatively, not to invent our own values and principles, and interpretations but to learn and live the eternal truths of the gospel.
Gospel living is a process of continuous individual renewal and improvement until the person is prepared and qualified to enter comfortably and with confidence into the presence of God.	Gospel living is a process of continuous individual renewal and improvement until the person is prepared and qualified to enter comfortably and with confidence into the presence of God.
My brothers and sisters, by inclination, training and experience, most of my life I have sought understanding by the accumulation of facts and the application of reason.	My brothers and sisters, by inclination, training and experience, most of my life I have sought understanding by the accumulation of facts and the application of reason.
I continue to do so.	I continue to do so.
However, that which I know most surely and which has most  significantly and positively affected my life I do not know by facts and reason alone, but rather by the comforting, confirming witness of the Holy Spirit.	However, that which I know most surely and which has most significantly and positively affected my life I do not know by facts and reason alone, but rather by the comforting, confirming witness of the Holy Spirit.
By that same Spirit I testify that God is our Father, the Jesus of Nazareth is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh and that he is the Savior and Redeemer of all mankind and each of us.	By that same Spirit I testify that God is our Father, the Jesus of Nazareth is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh and that he is the Savior and Redeemer of all mankind and each of us.
Through his atoning sacrifice, redemption and exaltation are offered as a free gift to all who will accept by faith, repentance and sacred covenants.	Through his atoning sacrifice, redemption and exaltation are offered as a free gift to all who will accept by faith, repentance and sacred covenants.
May each of us continue to learn and apply the eternal principles of the gospel, utilizing fully and appropriately the resources of the divine restore Church.	May each of us continue to learn and apply the eternal principles of the gospel, utilizing fully and appropriately the resources of the divine restore Church.
In the words of the Nephite leader Pahoran, "... may we rejoice in the great privilege of our church and in the cause of our Redeemer and our God." (Alma 61:14) In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.	In the words of the Nephite leader Pahoran, "... may we rejoice in the great privilege of our church and in the cause of our Redeemer and our God." (Alma 61:14) In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

 

Audio of the original talk.  http://loydo38.blogspot.com/2010/07/elder-poelmans-gospel-and-church.html

 

 

[greyfoxx39]

Disclaimer: I am former LDS and "anti" mormonism. I post articles from official mormon sources among others, that often relate to current discussions taking place on the forum to provide a means for open discussion in the Religion forum.

 

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[greyfoxx39]

Ping

[greyfoxx39]

In the October 1984 general conference of the LDS Church, Poelman delivered a sermon entitled "The Gospel and the Church". Controversy ensued when the version of his sermon that was published in the November 1984 Ensign magazine differed from the sermon Poelman had delivered orally.[5] Further, the videotape copies of general conference that were included in church archives and distributed throughout the church contained Poelman delivering the revised version of his sermon. A "cough track" was included in the retaping to make it appear that the revised sermon was delivered in front of an audience.[6]

One commentator has criticised the changes to the sermon as a dramatic shift in the meaning of Poelman's address:

"The rewriting and refilming of Elder Ronald Poelman's October 1984 Conference address, originally a rare and inspiring defense of free agency, so that it became yet another cry for obedience. His text was not edited — his ideas were turned inside out."[7]

Poelman was not invited to speak in general conference again for four and a half years.[6]

Link

[CommerceComet]

What say you Mormon defenders? You’re always quick to accuse the Anti-Mormons of distortion. Can I expect posts of outrage?

[greyfoxx39]

What say you Mormon defenders? You’re always quick to accuse the Anti-Mormons of distortion. Can I expect posts of outrage?

The defenders are either at conference where the KoolAid is flowing or trying to ignore this post, LOL....

[restornu]

Oh please if you have nothing else but to drag something that has been posted years ag on FR and answered.

geez still murmuring dear one....

[greyfoxx39]

If it was posted, and answered years ago, it shouldn’t be difficult to post the link, right?

[ejonesie22]

Of course we know what “answered” means coming from LDS apologist...

“What is the capital of Norway?”

“Belgium!”

“Are you sure, is that your final answer?”

“Yes, it is correct, I have answered your question, do not keep asking me, it is already answered!”

“But is is wrong, the capital is Oslo!”

“That is your opinion, and your are distorting my response to your own ends...”

“Um, ok...”

[greyfoxx39]

From what I could gather, the actual video may have just recently been uncovered. Therefore, the “answer” according to SOP could be proven wrong now. It would be hard to claim the whole thing was falsified with the video and the fake transcript now available.

[ejonesie22]

Won’t stop them from doing it anyway...

[greyfoxx39]

Yeah, it will be fun....

[Elsie]

When SOME OF THE LEADERS SPEAK, the thinking has been done; but the REST have to be EDITTED for correctness before publication.

---

"Well, brethren and sisters, try and be Saints. I will try; I have tried many years to live according to the law which the Lord reveals unto me. I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom, as I know the road to my office. It is just as plain and easy. The Lord is in our midst. He teaches the people continually. I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually. In the days of Joseph, revelation was given and written, and the people were driven from city to city and place to place, until we were led into these mountains. Let this [discourse] go to the people with "Thus saith the Lord," and if they do not obey it, you will see the chastening hand of the Lord upon them. But if they are plead with, and led along like children, we may come to understand the will of the Lord and He may preserve us as we desire."

 

Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, Page 95)

[Elsie]

I vote for #2.

—MormonDude(I couldn’t afford the trip this year.)

[Elsie]

Oh please if you have nothing else but to drag something that has been posted years ag on FR and answered.

"Little Jimmy; were you SLEEPING in class again?"

"NO, Maam."

"Then tell us; what is 2+2?"

"It is five; as we all know; Maam."

[Elsie]

FIVE! Because Billy whispered the answer to me!

[ejonesie22]

No, because Billy appeareth unto me as an angel of light...

He's been doing that ever since his daddy got him that really cool flashlight...

[Elsie]

bttt

[CommerceComet]

Oh please if you have nothing else but to drag something that has been posted years ag on FR and answered. geez still murmuring dear one....

Thanks for yet another vacuous non-answer. Does this apparent falsification of the record bother you at all?

[restornu]

NO

[CommerceComet]

I don’t recall the earlier discussion of this topic but let me guess about the explanation, it was just a “typesetting error”, right? Gullible people have bought that argument before on a much more foundational problem for Mormonism.