The Catholic Church Is Not Attractive

Crossed the Tiber ^ | 9/17/2010

[markomalley]

As Pope Benedict was heading to the British Isles he was asked if he thinks the Catholic Church needs to change to be more attractive to an increasingly secular British culture.
This is what he said:

“A Church that seeks to be particularly attractive is already on the wrong path.”

I appreciate these words of the holy father as he states very clearly what Jesus had told the disciples. You will be hated for my name sake and persecuted. The church that seeks to become more attractive to present itself in a "new and different" light to be more acceptable to the changing society is not what Jesus had in mind. The early church was cursed and persecuted and thought to be cannabalistic because of its strange and counter-culture beliefs. The early church fathers didn't change their theology or practices to fit into the secular culture of the Roman world. The modern Catholic Church continues to be maligned because of its counter-culture beliefs and practices such as anti-abortion, anti-contraception and hetero-sexual marriage.
I think of the seeker-friendly churches and the mega-churches in our country that have done everything they can to emulate the high-octane, American entertainment industry in an effort to make their churches more "relevant."
I'm sorry but I don't want to go to a "relevant" church.

As GK Chesterton has said: "I don't want to go to a church that changes with the culture. I want a Church that changes the culture."

He also said :

The Catholic Church is the only thing which saves a man
from the degrading slavery of being a child of his age."

[Grunthor]

“3. Because Latin is not a “foreign” language but is the native language of Western Civilization”

I live in the UNited States. Born and raised. It’s as foreign a language to me as German or French.

[kitkat]

***“Please jump in and help explain the enduring nature of the Latin Mass. Thanks!”***

I hope I understand your question properly. If so, the answer is that Latin is a dead language which, of course, never changes. So, no matter what country one is in the Mass he attends can be said without losing the original meaning.

The words may be changed to those of each country, but they must agree with the original Latin meaning.

[maryz]

What exactly is a Latin Mass? Is everything spoken in Latin or just certain key parts?

When people refer to "the Latin Mass," they are almost referring to the pre-Vatican II Mass (also referred to as "the old Mass," the "Tridentine Mass," or the "Traditional Latin Mass") as opposed to the "new Mass" or novus ordo, which was composed in Latin, but is generally celebrated in the vernacular. Texts of both are at the links should you wish to compare them.

The old Mass was always (AFAIK) said in Latin. For Sunday Mass, the Gospel was repeated in the vernacular just before the sermon, which was of course also in the vernacular. In daily Mass, there was no vernacular reading of the Gospel and no sermon.

We learned about the nature, structure and parts of the Mass in school (at least those of us in Catholic school), so we knew basically what was going on, even if we didn't have a Latin-English missal to follow along with.

[dartuser]

So is it fair to say that the majority of the Catholics in the Latin mass would know what is going on even if they don’t understand the spoken language?

[maryz]

does nothing for a possible new convert that speaks only his or her native tongue.

For a light-hearted (but not at all irreverent) account of a convert in the '50s ('40s?), you might pick up Lucile Hasley's Reproachfully Yours from Amazon or your local library.

[maryz]

I think they all knew the basics -- certainly we learned them by 7th grade. For myself, when my mother started bringing me to Mass when I was about 5, she started the explanations. Latin-English Missals were readily available -- I think at the time they cost less than $5, and they lasted.

[Cronos]

Good points

“A Church that seeks to be particularly attractive is already on the wrong path.”

“As GK Chesterton has said: “I don’t want to go to a church that changes with the culture. I want a Church that changes the culture.””

"I do not want a Church that is right when we are right. I want a Church that is right when we are wrong."

[Cronos]

Any well-instructed Catholic knows what’s going on at Mass—they are pretty much the same all across the world for 2000 years. If you took me to a Mass in Chinese I could tell you exactly what was going on, even though I don’t speak a word of Chinese.

I can attest to that -- I've been for mass in: English, Latin, French, Flemish, German, Hindi, Marathi, Konkani, Chinese, Polish, Czech, Italian, Spanish and I knew what was going on. There is the "catholicity" in effect! :-)

[Cronos]

The beauty of this, Grunthor, is knowing that you are part of something that is bigger than yourself -- this community of Christ, worshipping Christ, listening in awe to the readings of scripture, to the life of Jesus Christ, watching His death, His resurrection and rejoicing in His glorious ascenscion and knowing that this is what the faithful have been doing for 2000 years all over the world, gives one shivers and makes one praise the Lord, God Almighty more and more.

A Latin mass ties us in with much of the past and it also prevents a lot of the translation errors.

There is also a beauty, a deeper emotion in praising and rejoicing and celebrating our One God.

[Cronos]

You did miss the sermon, but much of the time, that made little difference, since we could reflect silently on the readings.

A very key point. G -- in The Church, we try to be "priest independent" i.e. the preacher is not the focus of the mass, he's kept to the side. The focus is on Christ -- the central focus of the mass is the Eucharist when Christ is the center of that centre.

[Cronos]

1. Church is not meant to be "fun" in the sense of a party-house. This is a place and time where we commune with God. Joy differs from fun

2. Now in a Catholic/Orthodox Church the mass is where we have the sermon, the psalms etc. all together -- not separated, which is the "joy" of it

3. We cannot have something so completely in this culture -- Christians are called to be in this world, yet not a part of this world. So similarly our masses are to be timeless.

[Cronos]

Ah, p — I must clarify. The sacrifice is the central point of the mass, just as it is the central point of Christ’s mission on earth, yet we also celebrate and rejoice in His resurrection and glory.

[Cronos]

Annalex -- it is completely wrong of you to say that Grunthor does not have faith. He may have a stronger faith than both of us, we are not to judge. He asked a simple question, a common doubt that many would have and we should honour his civil question with a civil response as mlizzy did "Yes, it was a 33-year hurdle for me, so I understand"

[Cronos]

Taking this in a non-religious context, I believe that learning Latin and / or Greek should be essential in a well-rounded Education. English has it’s purposes, yet is a simple language, lacking much of the “color” of other languages. Knowing Latin and / or Greek opens the reader to a wider perspective, it makes Spanish/Italian/French/Romanian easier to comprehend, it is the language of science, of law, as well as of religion. Learning Latin is known to help students think more logically and knowing a languages besides your mother tongue helps your brain in thinking in different ways.

[Iscool]

I would take exception to the “winging-it” statement. I’ve never known a Pastor to approach a service without much prayer and much study. It might be different that you are used to, but there is actually a lot of hard work that goes into it rather than just doing what the calendar tells you to.

Been to the occasional tent meeting where the preacher 'winged it'...Been to a few church services where the pastor 'winged it'...It seems to be far more inspiring that someone reading from a script...

While there are many pastors who read their sermons there are many who prepare notes and take off from the notes they have...They prepare the notes to be able to stay on topic...

Any one can read a newspaper or a sermon...I like the fella that preaches from his heart and spirit...

[Iscool]

I do not need to go to the Catholic church for Jesus. I have Him at all times.

Catholics don't appear to grasp that truth...Which is why we keep preachin' to Catholics and those who may fall into the abyss of Catholic superstition and ritual...

[Iscool]

So while we were all brought the Word of God quite sufficiently at Vic's service, none of us was able to leave the church *literally* with Christ.

Most went to the service with Jesus Christ and most left with Jesus Christ, literally...

And if you don't leave your Catholic Church within 20 minutes of eating Jesus, you don't leave with Christ either...

Mar 7:14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mar 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

Mar 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; (nor save him)
Mar 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

[Iscool]

The Holy Apostles understood Him literally. St, Paul, for example, teaches that he who does not realize that he is eating Christ’s body is condemned to hell

(1 Cor 11:29)1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

Nope...Not discerning the Lord's body on the Cross...Why Jesus died and his body broken for us; and that he is our only Savior...His body, the church...

He did not say to 'do this' to eat me...He said do this in remembrance of me...

Because there is nothing to indicate a figure of speech in the sense of the Last Supper

Not a figure of speech, but a metaphor...A spiritual application...

Jesus said in the same context that if you drink the water he provides, you'll never be thirsty again...You guys conspicuously ignore those verses...

The Holy Apostles understood Him literally.

There is no indication of that...They believed he is the Christ where those that left did not...

[Iscool]

We make you reflect on it for a year or so before we let you in though.

That's why I joined Jesus' church instead...

Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

I didn't have to wait...Jesus took me right in...

[Iscool]

I wouldn't say "merely", since we think the pastor speaks in persona Christi."

That may be what's taught, but obviously not believed by all of you...