Posted on 09/17/2010 10:38:54 PM PDT by markomalley
ROME, September 17, 2010 – Benedict XVI spent the second day of his trip to the United Kingdom in London. With six appointments. And as many speeches:
– to three hundred men and women religious educators, at St. Mary's University in Twickenham, also attended by British education minister Nick Gibb;
– to four thousand students on the athletic field of the same college, linked via internet with all of the Catholic schools of England, Scotland, and Wales;
– to Jewish leaders and leaders of the religions most present in the United Kingdom - Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism - in the Walgrave Drawing Room of Twickenham;
– to Anglican archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, at Lambeth Palace;
– to politicians, diplomats, businessmen, men of culture, and religious leaders, at Westminster Hall, also attended by the speakers of the House of Lords and the House of Commons;
– to representatives of the Christian confessions, gathered for an ecumenical celebration at Westminster Abbey.
Two of the six speeches stand out. The one to the students in Twickenham, and the one to the representatives of civil and political society at Westminster Hall.
The first of these also stands apart from the rest stylistically. The pope speaks to the students without formality. He asks them, candidly, to become saints. And he compares the journey of sanctity to a man and woman falling in love.
The second speech reprises the classic features of Joseph Ratzinger's vision of the reciprocal "purification" between reason and faith, and of the public dialogue between them that is necessary "for the good of our civilization."
The following is an anthology of the salient passages from the six papal speeches on September 17.
(Excerpt) Read more at chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it ...
Depends on why you want to be a saint.
If it is from a love of God and desire to do His will, then yes.
If it is so people can say “Look at how neat he was”, then you have a bigger problem.
That's right. We are a quarrelsome bunch, aren't we? But we love each other. Comparing Orthodox criticism of any Church hierarch (Latin or Greek) to Protestant Catholicophobia is just childish, like saying to your own brother "you don't agree with me, you are not my brother any more. Waaaa."
Sorry, I meant to ping you too.
No, it doesn't. Becoming a servant, indeed a slave of God, abrogates your right to expect anything; it has nothing to do with your status, promotion, position or honor in God's world. God calls you and you accept to serve. No other condition exists. If you are willing to serve God unconditionally, then let God decide who will be a saint. Don't expect it in return for your service.
If it is from a love of God and desire to do His will, then yes.
Nope. It's not a contract. It's a submission.
My apologies for the wrong citation. Note to self: proofread.
and it's in second aorist (meaningless tense in English and therefore cannot be accurately translated into English, except that it is usually a past tense, whihc is nonsense).
Correction, it is aorist passive imperative γενήθητε (the second aorist would be ἐγένησθε). The distinction between the present imperative and the aorist imperative is not one of tense but of duration. The aorist imperative refers to the action without saying anything about its duration or repetition, while the present imperative refers to it as continuing or as being repeated.
Second Leviticus is an imperative (shall), a commandment something every Jew is ordered to perform, and is menaningful only within confines of Judaism.
By the fact that it is quoted by St. Peter in his instruction shows that it is indeed still meaningful.
Third Matthews 5:48 is in future tense (become perfect...theosis).
The future tense indicates any time after the present. Given that this comes after a series of instructions on how to treat one's enemies, it is clear that our Lord is saying that we should strive for perfection now.
Fourth, the decision who will be what in Church is God's and not ours (at least according to the Christian Bible) … So, the desire should be to serve God whatever God has decided for us, rather than let pride and ambition and glory get the better of us.
Seeking to become a saint, i.e. striving for holiness, has nothing to do with one's station in the Church. One, by the grace of God, can become a saint in the anonymity of one's own family, a holiness unknown to anyone but God. It is a product of humility, not pride.
I have no disagreement with the concept, or reality, of unknown saints, eleni mou. I think my great grandmother, in the bosom of Abraham, is one. I believe Mt. Athos and any of a number of monasteries in our Patrida and elsewhere, are havens for unknown saints and I firmly believe that they intercede for us. I disagree that one is dragged witlessly into theosis. I also think it’s far, far too simple to speak of unknown saints in “heaven”.
As for theosis, plainly not witless, try this:
http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/christou_partakers.html
“We are a quarrelsome bunch, aren’t we? But we love each other.”
:)
And a propos of nothing other than to make any lurking Latins jealous, here is a musical interlude:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmwOKxC_beQ
“Do you Orthodox know the difference between a saint and a Saint?”
This one doesn’t. Is it a sin if I don’t? :)
I hope you listened to Dvina.
The difference between the beginning and the body of a sentence? The difference between hitting SHIFT and not?
Do you really think the Mother of God and all the Saints care about the capitalization rules of English? Why should you?
LHM, the petulance - it doth abound.
You obviously missed the point.
We are all called the be saints. We should all desire and aspire to be saints.
To be a saint is nothing more or less than to see the Beatific Vision, i.e., to make it to heaven. It is also considered by some of our separated brethren that to be living in a state of sanctifying Grace here on earth is to be a “saint.” Again, small “s.”
I don’t desire to be a Saint. Using caps with “Saint” signifies a canonized Saint. I do dearly desire to be a saint. But I’m not concerned about being a “Saint.” Shleps like me don’t usually qualify for the caps.
And there ain’t nothing petulant about that.
But to quibble over this little line about “becoming a saint,” in a fantastic talk by the Holy Father, is indeed petulant. And very disappointing. I don’t see the Patriarch taking the gospel to Great Britain the way our Holy Father is doing. And as magnificent as was Metropolitan Hilarion’s presence there was recently, it just ain’t the same.
(As far as I’m concerned, this is just Orthodox petulance at being upstaged.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmwOKxC_beQ
Fantastic! (I spent 3 years in the Byzantine Rite and have attended the local CarpathoRussian Orthodox Church, so I do have a place in my heart for the East ;-)
“I don’t see the Patriarch taking the gospel to Great Britain the way our Holy Father is doing.”
Of course you don’t. After all, Doc, it is +BXVI’s territory and his responsibility and has been since the 7th century if I recall correctly.
Good point, K. My apologies for being irritable over the initial remark that sparked this little exchange.
My family is German (Saxon actually) and when you love God, it isn't like a contract. Kind of hard to explain in a way, but it involves more duty than the American E Free churches talk about. Even Duty isn't quite the right word.
Dang it, the Ouzo from the local Greek fest isn't helping this, I will try again later.
“My apologies for being irritable over the initial remark that sparked this little exchange.”
Irritable is fine with the likes of us. We are regularly irritable, and yet, as my brother Kosta reminds us, we love each other in our own sort of odd Balkan Bandit way!
BTW, I thought you, of all the Latins on this thread, would enjoy Agni Parthene sung by Dvina. That pleases me!
“Dang it, the Ouzo from the local Greek fest isn’t helping this, I will try again later.”
What kind of Ouzo? Not that unspeakable Metaxa Ouzo I hope!
This Latin certainly enjoyed Dvini’s singing! BTW, I just got back from a little Mediterrain vacation and visited Patmos and Santorini. Was interesting seeing the Byzantine flag still flying over St John’s grotto. Got to see some very beautiful Orthodox churches in both locations. I hope to post some more in a few days (went to Holy Land too).
The reason you saw that flag flying over the monastery is because it is a “monastic republic” under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarch. It is called officially the “Holy Royal Patriarchal Stavropegic and Coenobiac Monastery of St John the Evangelist and Theologian”.
The island and its dependencies are a Patriarchial Eparchy headed by the abbot of the monastery.
Did you pick up any pumice on the beaches at Santorini and did you notice how the grape vines grow out there?
Thanks for giving me a better explanation than our guide (who was pretty good). Picked up a nice black volcanic rock on Santorini but also saw the pumic. The circular grape vines were interesting. We also did some wine tasting and everything we tasted was excellent. Have a few more thoughts for you but I have to get ready for Mass. Thanks for the kind reply and I’ll get back to you.
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