Posted on 09/01/2010 10:36:43 AM PDT by mlizzy
"There is, however, another angle. For many people, Notre Dame symbolized more than just 'the Catholic thing.' It symbolized the need -- in a culture of meaninglessness -- for a champion, for somebody to stand for 'the permanent things.' The Fighting Irish are my team on Saturday, many would say, because Notre Dame means something. When you pulled for Notre Dame, you pulled for a truth...[for] the one place that held fast" --Charles E. Rice, Notre Dame Law Professor Emeritus, from his book What Happened to Notre Dame?
"This school, even though it's a Catholic church school, it's created that environment for us to still grow spiritually and still believe the things we do" --Manti Te'o, Notre Dame sophomore linebacker and Mormon missionary.
Now before you think this commentary is about trashing tolerance or mocking Mormonism, let me say that the Tribune article accurately identifies reasons why Manti is a great fit for Notre Dame and the Irish. Tremendously talented yet extremely humble, a natural leader whose mind is not on wealth and fame but instead thinks in terms of the eternal, Te'o is indeed a "special person" well suited for this "special place." After originally opting to play for Pete "living with a co-ed" Carroll and bask in the "Hollywood glamour" of being a Southern California Trojan, Manti prayed and felt God wanted him to instead attend Notre Dame, and so he reluctantly obeyed--and, after seeing Carroll bolt to the NFL after the NCAA sanctioned his first choice for numerous recruiting violations, he now thanks God every day that he listened. But it's one thing for Te'o to be recruited by Notre Dame; it's another for a Mormon to be doing the recruiting.
The Trib article opens with T'eo attending a South Bend Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints' Sunday service--with a teammate. It then talks about how Notre Dame introduced Te'o to an LDS representative on his initial campus visit, and you're led to believe how nice it was for a Catholic school to be so accommodating. Reading further, you discover that "Te'o considers it part of his mission to oblige students or teammates who ask about his faith, or appear in need of counsel," which seems like kind of a cool thing for a football captain to do. But when the story then explains that his counseling not only includes calls for bringing "teammates to church with him" (and that the teammate he brought with him was not a fellow Mormon, but Chicago St. Rita alumnus Darius Fleming), you start to wonder. Finally, when "Where he belongs" concludes with the thought that "Te'o wasn't sure if he was doing missionary work well enough at Notre Dame, [until] his father stated "Son, you're not the one doing the converting. The spirit will" (and then going back to the beginning of the piece and re-reading that Manti "does not plan for a traditional Mormon mission to interrupt his college career), the truth hits you harder than a Te'o tackle. Manti is not going on a "traditional Mormon mission" to the uneducated in Africa or South America because the LDS reps figure the charismatic Polynesian has a better chance of converting the uncatechized Catholics in South Bend.
Of course many Catholic skeptics and would-be Fighting Irish followers, after reading about this sorry state of affairs, would conclude (with some justification) that Manti's Mormon mission is proof that any hope of the 2010 team playing for Our Lady is over. On the other hand, if you are truly Irish (whether by birth or conversion) you also know there's nothing like a "last straw" to make you want to stand up and fight. The strength of Notre Dame has always resided not merely with its dedicated alumni but with its "Secret Weapon," its die-hard subway alumni, and it's time for them to once again do what they do best; cheer and pray.
Pray for the Catholic members of the 2010 Irish, that they have the conviction to play for Our Lady during the contest and the courage to give Her the credit when the contest is over. Perhaps pick out a particular player and write them a letter describing how you and ND's #1 fan (a.k.a. Our Lady) are pulling for them on and off the field. And finally, don't forget about Coach Kelly. Remember, Rockne's conversion to the Catholic faith (which he credited largely to the devout example set by his players) inspired many Irish followers to convert; Kelly's "reversion" from "cafeteria Catholicism" to the real thing could start a similar trend. And, as for you, Manti, I believe that you are a real man, a man truly on a mission. But know that Our Lady is also on a mission, and She would love to have a real royal Polynesian warrior as Her "loyal son," leading Her Irish onward to victory.
The Mormons took a huge ad in my local (North Florida) press today and one of the articles announcing this said it was an attempt to overcome the “bias” of Evangelicals and others who believe Mormons aren’t Christians. This ignores the completely unbiased fact that Mormons actually aren’t Christians in the Nicene Creed sense of the word, and are closer to Islam than anything else, with their own particular “prophet.”
However, apparently now one can’t criticize Mormon (bizarre) theology without being called “biased.” On the other hand, it’s cool for them to go around proselytizing at Catholic schools.
The Mormons took a huge ad in my local (North Florida) press today and one of the articles announcing this said it was an attempt to overcome the “bias” of Evangelicals and others who believe Mormons aren’t Christians...[when] Mormons aren't actually Christians in the Nicene Creed sense of the word...My husband (the author of this article) and I were talking about this a couple days ago, that while Mormons are not Christians, the confusing/disturbing part about their faith, is they oftentimes act like Christians.
1)Is Jesus the Savior and Redeemer of the world?
2)Is Jesus God?
3)Is there only one God who exists?
So this raises the question, if you are a polytheist/ henotheist and you truly believe in many gods, can you at the same time be called a Christian? Mormons are certainly not monotheists and are pretty adamant that there are many gods of whom Jesus is just one.
The problem is that Mormons accept only a part of Jesus' identity. They answer yes to the first two questions, but they answer no to the third question. They accept Jesus as a savior and redeemer which is an important part of Jesus' identity which makes them partially Christian, and they also accept Him as a God, but at the same time they emphatically reject an integral part of Christ's identity as the ONE God which makes them emphatically not Christian. Mormons refuse to acknowledge Jesus as the One and Supreme God. Mormon's are instructed not to pray to Jesus, because the LDS Church teaches that Mormons are only to pray to the Father in the name of Jesus, but not to actually pray to Jesus Himself. Consequently, Mormons cannot worship Jesus, because they are currently taught not to pray to Him. (Despite the fact that the Book of Mormon itself undermines that current teaching when it says that the Nephites fell down at the feet of Jesus and worshipped Him.)
Mormon's believe that accepting Jesus as the Savior is enough to call themselves "Christian," but is it? Is that the only thing that makes you a "Christian?" I would answer in the negative. Don't get me wrong, many Mormons are absolutely wonderful, good people who are trying to follow Jesus, but in order to be called a "Christian" in the technical sense of the word, I don't think you can be a polytheist/ henotheist. Maybe it's just me, but I tend to think that logically speaking, if two religions have different definitions of God/gods, they are different religions. Therefore, if the word "Christian" refers to a single "religion", then it cannot be both a polytheistic and monotheistic religion simultaneously. I think that two religions with conflicting definitions of God aren't the same religion. Therefore, if this is the case, either the Mormon's are Christian, and those who call themselves Christians aren't, or monotheistic "Christians" are Christian and the Mormons aren't. Well, that's just my impression of the whole affair in any case.
Something that Mormons do, and the media do, is carve out Evangelicals only, as the Christians that are against something, this both isolates and cuts them out of the Christian herd, but also makes whatever the issue is, seem like it has the approval of all the other Christians.
Greek Orthodox, Catholics, and Protestants are all in agreement on Mormonism.
Exactly. All orthodox Christians agree on Mormonism. I think the Mormons are focusing on the Evangelicals because they know the press hates Evangelicals, and also because people who leave Mormonism would most likely go to Evangelical Protestantism because this was one of the streams in its formation (that is, Smith drew upon things that were around him, which included everything from born again Christianity to spiritualism to looking for treasure through a crystal in the bottom of his hat...).
I have always thought that at some point there will be a shaking out among Mormons, and those who really do want to be Christians will have to make a choice.
Why do you suppose that Mormons would become Evangelical rather than Catholic? Mormons have a lot of common ground on many issues that other denominations don't. The stress that the Catholic Church puts on a priesthood hierarchy is very similar (though the authority that the pope claims to hold is a bit more limited and very different in nature than the LDS prophet claims since Mormons can issue new revelations.)
LeGrande Richards, a long deceased Mormon Apostle, even comes to the conclusion that only the Mormons or the Catholics could be true. His reasoning is that Apostolic Succession of the priesthood by the laying on of hands is necessary. Therefore, either Jesus' Church was always on the earth (and would thus be the Catholic Church), or it apostatized and needed to be restored (which would make the Mormons true.) His argument is that the "protestants" came out of the Catholic Church and therefore couldn't be the original Church.
However, if a person leaves Mormonism, then the denomination a Mormon chooses will also depend on the reasons they are leaving. If the Church has overworked them and worn them out with mountains of priesthood assignments, they may opt for a less works oriented faith of the "once saved always saved variety" but if they accept most of the LDS Church's emphasis on priesthood authority and ordinances, they are very likely to be more Catholic in their tendencies.
BTW, I think the reason that LDS Church is focusing on Evangelicals is because Evangelicals are the ones most passionately and vocally opposed to Mormonism. Many Evangelicals wouldn't vote for Romney no matter what because of his Mormonism...which is how the Republicans ended up with McCain instead. The evangelicals went to Huckabee instead. If not for that, Romney would have been the Republican nominee instead of McCain. The Church has noted this. Besides, Evangelicals are also one of the largest Christians demographics in the US too. If the LDS Church is ever going to be accepted as Christian in the US, it's got to win them over with PR. Just a few of many thoughts to consider, I guess.
Sadly, some ex-Mormons say that many Mormons are so confused and made distrustful by Mormonism that when they leave it, they don’t go to a Christian church of any kind.
Unfortunately true, of much of Mrs. C_C's lapsed-Mormon family.
Fortunately, Mrs. C_C herself found conversion to Southern Presbyterianism to be quite spiritually vivifying, and liberating.
Amen. She's one fortunate Mrs. C_C.
For thou shalt eat the labour of thine hands: happy shalt thou be, and it shall be well with thee. Thy wife shall be as a fruitful vine by the sides of thine house: thy children like olive plants round about thy table. Behold, that thus shall the man be blessed that feareth the LORD." -- Psalm 128:1-4 "Blessed is every one that feareth the LORD; that walketh in his ways.
I would agree with that too. I don't know the statistics, but I'm fairly certain that a large portion of those people who leave Mormonism do become agnostics or even atheists. It's hard to trust any religion when you realize that you have been lied to and exploited in the name of God. Many of those who research LDS history and Doctrine end up feeling that way.
Can't say I've seen you here before....
Welcome to FR...
They're hardly alone in that regard. Nestorians aren't Christians in the Nicene Creed sense of the word, and there's a lot of borderline (if not actual) Nestorianism running through the evangelical and pentecostal communities.
Theotokos.
I don't usually post on "Mormon" threads. I might say something rather unkind about the religion based on the impressions I've gleaned from Mrs. C_C's own religiously-burnt-out, ex-Mormon family.
But, while I am not one to compartmentalize the Grace of God -- He works, in His own way, in His own time, as He sees fit -- I will tell you what "worked" in Mrs. C_C's case.
It was the "There are only two religions" Mini-Sermon. Some of you may already be familiar with it.
Here's how it goes:
There's absolutely nothing you can DO to merit salvation; and nothing you have to do, because Jesus has already done it ALL for you.
It's done. Fully, completely, entirely, it's DONE.
At this point, Mrs. C_C broke down in my arms (just a chaste hug, we were still only dating at this point) and started crying uncontrollably. "It's done... it's really done... I don't have to do anything, Jesus did it all for me... IT'S DONE!!"
She couldn't help but roll her eyes a little when we had the Mormon missionaries in for a spot of lunch a few weeks back (she knows her husband likes to sharpen his teeth on Mormon missionaries, and she's forbearing enough to indulge him his trivial pursuits) and they started talking about "the conditions of salvation" in response to my exposition of Hebrews 10:11-14.
It was sorta like a couple guys trying to tell her, "Oh, yeah, you think you enjoy Freedom so much? Well, um, lemme tell you what you've been missing in Slavery!" Their sales pitch was, well, rather unsuccessful.
I guess in my #15 I should probably have also mentioned Islam as one of the largest, most egregious, and most violent of the “Do” Religions, but whatever.... it’s all the same Satanic Gospel, just different names and rituals.
Good post.
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