Posted on 08/29/2010 7:24:55 AM PDT by x_plus_one
In his 1938 book, Mohammed et Charlemagne, Belgian historian Henri Pirenne argued in great detail that the Dark Ages of Europe began rather suddenly in the middle of the seventh century; and that this sudden and catastrophic decline in civilization was due to Islam’s blockade of the Mediterranean.
Up to that time, Pirenne showed, there was no evidence of a decline in Classical culture. True, the Western Roman Empire as a political entity had disappeared in 476, but the literate, prosperous and urban civilization which we call “Classical” continued virtually uninterrupted.
The Goths and other “Barbarian” peoples who ruled the provinces of the West after 467 did not try to destroy Roman civilization and civil society. Indeed, as Pirenne showed in great detail, they did everything in their power to preserve it. They adopted the Latin language, accepted Imperial titles from the Emperor in Constantinople, and minted gold coins with the image of the Eastern Emperor emblazoned upon them.
In the West of Europe and in the East, in North Africa and the Middle East, Classical civilization came to an end in the mid-seventh century; and the reason for its demise can be summed up in one word: Islam.
(Excerpt) Read more at sioe.wordpress.com ...
You're right. At this stage, it's still a war of ideas... that will change as they get the upper hand.
So, either the Dark Ages begin in the mid 600's with the rise of Islam, or the Dark Ages end in the mid 700's with the Muslim conquest of Spain.
Interpretation of historical events always contains strong elements of propaganda.
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Eh...what? Classical civilization (Greco/Roman civilization) was over in the west even before islam existed and continued in the east (Constantinople) for nearly 800 years after islam started.
"True, the Western Roman Empire as a political entity had disappeared in 476, but the literate, prosperous and urban civilization which we call “Classical” continued virtually uninterrupted."
China was "literate, prosperous and urban" but it damn sure wasn't a Classical civilization.
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The Dark Ages began with a BANG!
An event in 535AD created a weather anomaly that had Western and Northern Europe on its knees ~ depopulated, impoverished and devastated by 541AD.
Eastern and Southern Europe declined a bit more gradually, but by the 600s even the grapes had died throughout the headwaters of the Rhone Valley, the OLDEST civilized part of ancient Gallia.
Merlin ~ probably not the same guy romanticized in later stories ~ replanted the grapes in what is now Brittany (and Normandy) some time in the early late 600s, and then in the Rhone in the early 700s.
(Those are local traditions regarding the replantings).
Remember the devastation that struck Eastern Brittain at the end of Arthur's reign there? He had given up the Essex area to the invading Saxons some time in the early 500s. The people who'd live there (their knights, nobles and plantation owners) relocated to Brittany as a sort of advance guard at that time leaving behind nothing but their name ~ they did take with them a copy of the royal annals ~ and they show up later in Beaujolais as a counterpart "King Arthur" series, albeit with the lake wherefrom sprang the "Lady of the Lake" located in Brittany and not Brittain.
This is the founding kingdom later married into by the Bourbons in the 1100s ~ that, as much as Hugh Capet, gave "the family" it's cachet.
Anyway, Islam didn't have a whole lot to do with that particular economic collapse ~ after all, it happened in China at the same time and lasted a minimum of 300 years before the first signs of economic recovery were seen. It took until the 1300/1400 period before the Mongols were able to reopen the Silk Road that connected Chinese, Indian and European trade.
European type human beings lived in Western China right up to the beginning of the Dark Age disaster. White folks fell back over 1,000 miles at that time.
They were living in Denmark, Sweden and Norway too, but their civilizations there had nothing in common with Rome - which is my beef with the author and his claim about islam somehow ending Classical civilization.
The Moslems actually succeeded in converting people in the border area between France and Spain along the Mediterranean. Arian Christians began moving in on them (probably because they were wealthier given their connection to the other side of the Mediterranean which was recovering from the Dark Ages climate anomaly quite nicely.
The converts called in the heavy artillery from Spain and next thing you know you had the Charles Martel thing.
It took Rome another century or so to move the Arians out of the churches and send them back North.
You can look at the Martel thing in several different ways ~ it wasn't all good, not even for the people in what is now France. Probably set back recovery from the economic collapse another 400 to 600 years in fact.
Economic recovery may not have been possible any sooner and possibly never would have happened under islamic rule.
Spain went from being the wealthiest nation on Earth under the Moslems to being the wealthiest nation on Earth under the Christians, then they kicked out the Jews and within a relatively short period of time managed to waste it all and turn into a third world pestilential Hellhole.
As they say it's the economy!
Best thing for the whole planet is to condemn Islam, erase it from history and declare it incompatible with the human race.
The Spanish persecuted the Jews for a long time, but I don't think they actually expelled them until 1492 - just before the Spanish established a wealthy world-wide empire.
Although it was islamic, Yemen had a large Jewish population, until the rebirth of Israel, but I don't think Yemen was ever an economic powerhouse. I don't think islamic rule meant economic success with, or without, the presence of Jews; so I would argue with you that France would have been economically successful had Martel failed. In fact, even if Martel's victory somehow setback France's economic recovery, France (and the West) are undoubtedly better off because he succeeded.
During the video, watch how the “Useful Idiots” in the audience find his remark so delightfully reassuring.
America, better get your heads out of the other end of your alimentary canal.
These folks are LYING to us, the INFIDELS. They’re commanded to do so in their Koran.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl5qpT5nbuA
Eventually the working class Jews for the most part got assimilated ~ (many authorities assert that up to 25% of the existing Spanish population is of substantially Jewish origin).
The middle class and the intelligentsia moved on as they were "discovered".
The Jewish presence was still important well into the time after Spain took advantage of it's American and Philippine discoveries.
An argument can be made that Dutch intrigue and emigration did in the Spanish ~
Everything in Yemen is controlled by the weather and the dam.
At one time, before Mohammad, just about everybody there had been converted to Judaism.
It's an incredibly convoluted history ~ and you are free to look it over if you wish. Just look up YEMEN TIMELINE.
I do have to confess to almost total ignorance about the history of Yemen, it's just that it would never appear on my list of rich and successful countries in history.
I know I'm over-simplifying it, but I guess my argument with you would be that you seem to be equating economic success as the greatest good ("You can look at the Martel thing in several different ways... Probably set back recovery from the economic collapse another 400 to 600 years in fact."
I don't honestly know if it did, or didn't; I just know islam has been generally bad for the average joe everywhere it has been tried. They've had some bright spots - I would hope so, given their 1400-year-run - but over all, Churchill said it best:
"Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities... But the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world."
With failure at the Battle of Tours all of Western history would have changed - for the worse.
A thing to keep in mind is that Pirenne was a liberal, rather than a defender of Christianity. However, it should be remembered that it was Justinian’s Gothic Wars, with their dreadful cost to Italy as well as to his treasury, that crippled both
West and East, and left East Rome open to the invasions of the Persians. Both Rome and Persian were exhausted by their wars, leaving both open to the Arab conquest. And unlike the Germans, the Arabs were NOT open to the adoption of either Roman or Persian culture, or if they were initially, that was all ended by the late 8th Century.
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