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To: bkaycee
This is against Pelagius and not a statement of double predestination.

In Our fallen nature we will never choose God.

I agree, but we disagree about man and God.

Cats and Dogs are free to fly, however their nature does not allow them to.

So we would not condemn them for not flying. Neither would we condemn them or praise them for licking themselves - they cannot do otherwise.

A God who creates cats who can only lick and condemns them for would be unjust and cruel. A God who creates a human being who cannot believe and then condemns him for it would be the same.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


5,873 posted on 09/17/2010 2:06:05 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr
This is against Pelagius and not a statement of double predestination. In Our fallen nature we will never choose God. I agree, but we disagree about man and God. Cats and Dogs are free to fly, however their nature does not allow them to. So we would not condemn them for not flying. Neither would we condemn them or praise them for licking themselves - they cannot do otherwise. A God who creates cats who can only lick and condemns them for would be unjust and cruel. A God who creates a human being who cannot believe and then condemns him for it would be the same.

So you do not see man inheriting a fallen nature from Adam?

Man is neutral in your view and God owes him a chance?

God chooses to save some and allow the rest to what they deserve.

If you want pure justice then ALL deserve hell.

Sounds like you are a semi pelagian. Man has been wounded but with help can choose correctly.

5,874 posted on 09/17/2010 2:51:15 PM PDT by bkaycee
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To: D-fendr
This is against Pelagius and not a statement of double predestination.

Correct ,nor does it say any person is to assume they are predestined to heaven. This would be the sin of presumption since we don't have the right to assume we are worthy of deserving heaven. It shows lack of humility

Scripture says even the just man sins multiple times a day

From Thomas Kempis Imitation Of Christ-Self-Abasement in the Sight of God

I WILL speak to my Lord, I who am but dust and ashes. If I consider myself anything more than this, behold You stand against me, and my sins bear witness to the truth which I cannot contradict. If I abase myself, however, if I humble myself to nothingness, if I shrink from all self-esteem and account myself as the dust which I am, Your grace will favor me, Your light will enshroud my heart, and all self-esteem, no matter how little, will sink in the depths of my nothingness to perish forever. It is there You show me to myself -- what I am, what I have been, and what I am coming to; for I am nothing and I did not know it. Left to myself, I am nothing but total weakness. But if You look upon me for an instant, I am at once made strong and filled with new joy. Great wonder it is that I, who of my own weight always sink to the depths, am so suddenly lifted up, and so graciously embraced by You. It is Your love that does this, graciously upholding me, supporting me in so many necessities, guarding me from so many grave dangers, and snatching me, as I may truly say, from evils without number. Indeed, by loving myself badly I lost myself; by seeking only You and by truly loving You I have found both myself and You, and by that love I have reduced myself more profoundly to nothing. For You, O sweetest Lord, deal with me above all my merits and above all that I dare to hope or ask. May You be blessed, my God, for although I am unworthy of any benefits, yet Your nobility and infinite goodness never cease to do good even for those who are ungrateful and far from You. Convert us to You, that we may be thankful, humble, and devout, for You are our salvation, our courage, and our strength.

5,875 posted on 09/17/2010 3:07:07 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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