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To: D-fendr
It critical to free will and salvation that the Confession says it is predetermined whether they will believe or not. The portions you posted have to do with the process, but it is an unchangeable process, predetermined for man. Man cannot but do and choose how he was predetermined and foreordained to. To me, this is not free will, it programming. The human executes the program, in the same way as a computer does.

Council of Orange;

CANON 7. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, "For apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, "Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God" (2 Cor. 3:5).

We have free will in our fallen state. In Our fallen nature we will never choose God.

Cats and Dogs are free to fly, however their nature does not allow them to.

5,872 posted on 09/17/2010 1:29:20 PM PDT by bkaycee
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To: bkaycee
This is against Pelagius and not a statement of double predestination.

In Our fallen nature we will never choose God.

I agree, but we disagree about man and God.

Cats and Dogs are free to fly, however their nature does not allow them to.

So we would not condemn them for not flying. Neither would we condemn them or praise them for licking themselves - they cannot do otherwise.

A God who creates cats who can only lick and condemns them for would be unjust and cruel. A God who creates a human being who cannot believe and then condemns him for it would be the same.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


5,873 posted on 09/17/2010 2:06:05 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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