Posted on 08/13/2010 2:53:38 PM PDT by Quix
We discuss the Roman Catholic notion of TRANSSUBSTANTIATION a fair amount hereon.
As I was driving across the beautiful, majestic Dineh Rez yesterday, I listened to most of more than 75 hymns and praise songs in a particular CD collection I had with me.
I was pondering that issue a fair amount—particularly the rather intense Roman Catholic obsession with it. I recalled how my noting that I could IMAGINE that, GOD in His Grace and Mercy COULD allow the verse about ACCORDING TO YOUR FAITH, SO BE IT UNTO YOU . . . to operate in some spiritually powerful sense for some RC’s in the act of partaking of The Lord’s Supper.
It was curious to me that my posting such assertions were never responded to very well, if at all, by more than one RC, if that many.
Then I began to prayerfully ponder what that ‘special’ application of “ACCORDING TO YOUR FAITH, SO BE IT UNTO YOU” might be like, operate like, look like.
ALL OF A SUDDEN,
It was as though a clear Voice in my spirit said something to the effect that: “IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT FAITH. IT HAS NEVER BEEN ABOUT OBJECTS, NEVER.” My further sense was that GOD ALONE HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE ONLY “OBJECT” OF OUR AFFECTIONS THAT HE SUPPORTED.
Then some historic Scriptural examples came to mind. The forbidden fruit in The Garden was not about the fruit. It was about TRUSTING GOD—HAVING FAITH THAT GOD HAD ADAM AND EVE’S BEST INTERESTS AT HEART—THAT HE WOULD NOT WITHHOLD ANYTHING GOOD FROM THEM THAT WOULD BE TRULY GOOD FOR THEM. It was about TRUSTING GOD’S PROVISION AND CHARACTER ENOUGH to obey Him fully, in child-like faith and confidence in ABBA FATHER.
The altars of sacrifice that followed were not about the altars; nor even about the sacrifices. THEY WERE ABOUT TRUSTING GOD AND HIS INSTRUCTIONS ENOUGH TO BELIEVE THAT OBEDIENCE TO HIM WAS A SUPREMELY HIGH PRIORITY AND THAT GOD’S LOVE AND PROVISION WOULD SUFFICIENT—EVEN HIS PROVISION FOR SIN.
Noah’s Ark was not about the ark. It was about FAITH THAT GOD SPOKE TRUTH AND THAT GOD’S PROVISION WOULD BE SUFFICIENT. It was about FAITH IN GOD AND IN GOD’S WORD.
The blood on the doorposts in Egypt—as supremely vital and foreshadowing as that was . . . was not per se , about the blood. THAT TOO was about TRUSTING GOD AND TRUSTING GOD’S WORD AND THAT GOD’S PROVISION FOR SIN, FOR LIFE WOULD BE SUFFICIENT.
The brass serpent on the cross in the wilderness was not about serpents nor crosses. THAT TOO was about TRUSTING GOD AND TRUSTING GOD’S WORD that God’s provision FOR SIN AND FOR LIFE WOULD BE SUFFICIENT.
The Ark of The Covenant was NOT about a gold chest, angels & wings, golden hemorrhoids, Arron’s staff that budded nor the stone tablets of the Ten Commandments. It was about FAITH IN GOD, IN GOD’S LOVE AND IN GOD’S PROVISION.
Similarly, The Bread and The Wine are not about the Bread and The Wine—REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY TURN INTO SOMETHING MORE, OR NOT. They are about REMEMBERING GOD’S FAITHFULNESS AND PROVISION FOR SIN AND FOR ETERNAL LIFE—AND TO HAVE FAITH IN GOD’S ONGOING PROVISION FOR BOTH, DAY BY DAY.
I do NOT believe they turn into, what would by now, be massive tonnage of Christ’s body and blood. God has never had that kind of emphasis ON FLESH throughout Scripture. I don’t believe He suddenly shifted HIS EMPHASIS AND FOCUS in the middle of the stream.
Nevertheless, as a thought experiment, just pretend for a moment . . . that for some very strange and OUT OF BIBLICAL CHARACTER REASON, He did facilitate or allow that to happen.
EVEN THEN—WOULD THE BREAD AND THE WINE/LITERAL BODY AND BLOOD BE THE FOCUS?
NO WAY. GOD KNOWS US TOO WELL.
He knows we would quickly turn such elements and all the rituals around them into unmitigaged idolatrous nonsense AND REMOVE OUR FOCUS FROM THE (in Martin Buber’s terms) I-THOU RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN EACH INDIVIDUAL AND THE FATHER—WHICH WAS THE WHOLE POINT OF CHRIST’S SACRIFICE TO BEGIN WITH.
Oh, I can hear all the wails about how “knowing” (fantasizing) that “TRANSUBSTANTIATION” is “REAL” causes individuals to focus more intensely and directly on THE FATHER.
I can conceive of that to a degree for some relatively few individuals.
I don’t believe it for a flash for most of the loudest pontificators hereon.
THE ACT, THE RITUALS, THE SUBSTANCES, THE OBJECTS ARE FARRRRRRRR TOOOOO PRECIOUS AS OBJECTS AND SUBSTANCES TO THEM. That’s Idolatry.
I realize that’s likely to be tricky for some to wrap their rigid, willfully blind noggins around. Maybe even for some not so willfully blind.
Consider . . . if one is focusing on a wafer and swallow of wine . . . even if one is convinced and pretending or being utterly convinced that the wafer and wine are literally Christ’s flesh and blood . . . where is the focus?
At least LARGELY, the focus is ON THE “FLESH AND BLOOD.” The focus is on a “GLORIFIED” SOMETHING held in one’s hands or mouth.
If anything, that’s a FOCUS ON THE RESIDUE OF A CRUEL CRUCIFIXION.
YET, let’s pretend a bit more preposterously. Let’s assume that we are talking about the one in a million RC’s who MIGHT for flashingly brief moments spring-board from the cruel tangibles in their mouth or hands to THE RISEN LORD in their focus. What then is the import of literal flesh and blood in their mouth or hands that any Proddy misses out on by reaching the SAME QUALITY OF FOCUS with the elements merely as symbolic items of remembrance?
Christ implemented, as far as I can think or discern, the Lord’s Supper as a REMEMBRANCE much as the Ark of the Covenant was—saying—HEY—FOLKS—WHEN YOU SEE THE ARK, WHEN YOU THINK OF THE ARK—REMEMBER GOD’S FAITHFULNESS AND PROVISION THROUGH FROM EGYPT TO JERICO AND BEYOND. HAVE FAITH IN GOD! STRENGTHEN YOUR FAITH IN GOD!
Similarly, when we partake of the elements—FOCUS ON FAITH IN GOD—ON CHRIST’S PROVISION FOR SIN AND FOR ETERNAL LIFE—FOCUS IN ON HIM AND HIS VERY ONGOINGLY ACTIVE AND ETERNAL PROVISION.
The INGESTION of CHRIST IN US IS SPIRITUAL—TOTALLY SPIRITUAL—MUST BE TOTALLY SPIRITUAL FIRST AND FOREMOST. Yes, it influences our physical bodies as HE IS WHO HE IS IN US—THE RESURRECTED CHRIST.
The internally broken down elements are eliminated through normal bodily functions. NOT SO WITH THE RISEN CHRIST—HOLY SPIRIT WITHIN US. AS WE FOCUS MORE ON HIM—THE RISEN LORD, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS—HE GROWS WITHIN US IN TERMS OF HIS INFLUENCE, HIS CONTROL, HIS SATURATION OF ALL OUR BEING WITH HIMSELF AND HIS PROVISION FOR US.
God’s focus NEVER HAS BEEN the flesh—not the objects of the flesh, nor the deeds of the flesh. The flesh is a vehicle for our training as sons of God—primarily as children of God—spirits enlivened with God.
YES, HE WILL REDEEM AND RESURRECT OUR BODIES. It’s not as though He trashes our bodies. However, HE CERTAINLY DOES NOT exalt the flesh in any sense. And there’s not a shred of Scripture to suggest that HE WANTS US TO EXALT EXAMPLES OF FLESH—OBJECTS OF FLESH—EVEN OSTENSIBLY AS CHRIST’S OWN BODY AND BLOOD.
It has NEVER been about the objects. It HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT FAITH IN GOD AND IN HIS LOVE AND PROVISION—HIS PROVISION FOR SIN, HIS PROVISION FOR ETERNAL LIFE.
WE ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP—IN OUR HEARTS, MINDS, SPIRITS . . . He takes care of our bodies sufficiently to achieve the that task through our life process, trek, dance.
God even trashed the ritual with the most sacred object in the HOLY OF HOLIES when He rent the Temple Curtain. What greater declaration could He have made about His attitude toward a focus on objects and rituals?
They are never adequate nor safe as a focus of worship.
Never.
smvoice, please ping the END TIMES LIST with the consultants sub list that I included to you.
Thx thx.
PING.
God loved matter so much he became matter Himself!.
"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."
That's the central mystery of the Christian faith.
Your "matter is bad, matter tempts people to idolatry, God doesn't care about matter" take is just Christianity attempting to water itself down into something more like Judaism or Islam, two very, very disembodied religions.
Islam is so disembodied that they won't even depict Mohammed in a picture as having a human face ... if he were accurately represented to Muslims, after all, he might tempt them to commit idolatry somehow.
Ever noticed in those comic books produced by [name redacted], how Jesus doesn't have a face -- it's just a blank oval where His face ought to be? It's the same idea at work.
Against which, Catholics and Orthodox will stand together and insist that Jesus took on real human flesh and was born of a real woman at a real time in a real stable and died, shedding real blood, on a real hill on a real cross suffering real pain, and that his real Sacred Humanity is truly and rightly an object of worship.
Read the Gospel of John, then read it again.
Thanks for your kind reply.
It was interesting to me, as it was ‘bubbling up,’ too.
I don’t recall hiring you as my style coach or style editor.
Congrats on making it through the piece. I trust your poor eyes still work.
As to defeating a purpose . . . that presupposes that you know what my purpose was/is about that. I’m exceedingly skeptical that you do.
Evidently y’all read the words
and came away with zilch for understanding.
Amazing.
I’m not being Platonistic etc. about matter is all or even necessarily mostly bad and only spirit is good.
Nope.
Not my perspective.
Congrats on the Epic Fail, yet again, at understanding.
But hey, it’s a tricky topic to use words with at all. You are welcome to blame my poor words.
Building all the
Vatican skyscrapers on that splinter of a toothpick of a foundation
is . . . some MAJOR mangling of reality.
I’ve never felt that God left anything major to ambiguity in wording.
Y’all make that verse one of the major raison d’etra foundations of the Vatican system.
Yet, your meaning is not at all the only plausible one.
And, given the whole counsel of Scripture, y’all’s meaning is highly unlikely to be true, at all.
What a sloppily chosen foundation for a major chunk of the Vatican’s foundation.
Actually, it’s about as flimsy as using Peter as the foundation on that sliver of a toothpick.
As to defeating a purpose . . . that presupposes that you know what my purpose was/is about that. I’m exceedingly skeptical that you do.I had not considered the possibility that you intended to write a brilliant example of bad argument, in which case you succeeded admirably, and I stand corrected as I in point of fact did not understand that to be your purpose.
Your "matter is bad, matter tempts people to idolatry, God doesn't care about matter" take is just Christianity attempting to water itself down into something more like Judaism or Islam, two very, very disembodied religions.What breath-taking ignorance. Apparently you've never met a Jew, or you have no Jews in your neighborhood, and you've never enjoyed a meal in a Sukkah or a place at a seder table. There is nothing "disembodied" about Judaism.
I think you writing more about Eucharistic adoration more than just the Eucharist becoming the body and blood literally in the act of a communion rite. You point out the Holy of ho lies. Then what you believe what all examples are really about. You probably mean the true essence. But there is still a priority in the Godly actions shown through Scripture. You can't take one out from the other.
I believe it all starts with passover. Its no coincidence that the last supper is instituted during the passover. Which at first is about the Lamb eaten then the blood put on the doorpost. Which does declare in scripture to be always celebrated through out time. So Christ(The Real Lamb) declares that he is the body with the bread to be eaten. And this then continues through out time.
I respectfully disagree. I can't even see a man making this up. The Real Presence could not be made up in my humble opinion. No real human would touch this with that thought unless shown by God. It first seems like cannibalism from the natural mind. Most people do not have this tendency especially an apostle. Look at the scriptures and the early Church who were taught by the Apostles. They believed in the Real Presence.
http://www.catholicfaithandreason.org/fathersoneucharist.htm
I don't think Plato ever said such a thing. I.e., that matter is all and moreover bad, and only spirit is good. Of all people, it seems to me that Plato best understood that man lives in the "In-Between" of matter and spirit.... And he seems to have recognized that God created both....
I can conceive of that to a degree for some relatively few individuals.
I don’t believe it for a flash for most of the loudest pontificators hereon.
I thought mind reading was against the rules.
You, somehow, know the spiritual thoughts of millions of other people.
Wow.
The purple is hard to read. Just thought you might like to know that.
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