Posted on 08/12/2010 3:10:34 PM PDT by armydoc
"Some people are so foolish that they think they can go through life without the help of the Blessed Mother." "Love the Madonna and pray the rosary, for her Rosary is the weapon against the evils of the world today." "All graces given by God pass through the Blessed Mother."
(Excerpt) Read more at marypages.com ...
“Since God surely knows the hearts and minds of men I do think in his wisdom the account of Marys death was purposely eliminated.....as is little record of Mary in the scripture. But as is usual people in religious circles can take a plank of wood and somehow make it into something more than it is....creating something out of nothing more than in reality it is.”
God purposely hid the body of Moses for that very reason you describe. Scripture records it, so it certainly would fit with your notions of Mary and the lack of documentation as to her final disposition.
The witnesses word in this use means “Martyr”. Whence Eng., “martyr,” one who bears “witness” by his death.
It does not imply a present tense consciousness, but a past tense. Of course the future tense of the resurrection is implied.
I have already explained the differences between the dead in Christ who SLEEP waiting for the Trump, and those in Hell now waiting for the great white throne judgment and those who WERE in Abraham’s bosom and are NOW conscience in Heaven.
As for talking to the dead, saved or unsaved, it is actually forbidden under penalty of death.
We are to be encouraged by their EXAMPLE.
They are NOT present.
The problem is the tense Paul uses is the present. WE ARE encompassed(surrounded) about by a great cloud of witnesses(martyrs if you will).Hebrews 12:1. Paul in Hebrews 11 and 12 is encouraging Christians in the “Race to be run” in their lives and cites these “martyrs” as your describe, but as surrounding us NOW. You cannot come away with the conclusion that these ‘witnesses” or Martyrs are in a current unconscious state. Paul speaks of them as being alive and in the NOW! The NOW of God is a different state as God lives past, present and future all at once.
“As for talking to the dead, saved or unsaved, it is actually forbidden under penalty of death.”
Yeah, well we know that the dead prophet Samuel was really sore at Saul for trying that!
Somehow all my lines got ran together.... ouch. Sorry about that.
So we are presently bound to a great cloud of witnesses or Martyrs. ARE as in now or presently. As for what “sleep” means in the GREEK you never explain it.
Since I don’t know GREEK and God obviously has not blessed any English version(since the language is so imprecise as you “state”) of the Bible so that people can’t get any benefit from it (sarcasm implied) let me just say that from what I’ve been taught, this term of “sleeping saints” has more to do with a restful repose in a Paradise state or in “Abraham’s Bosum” as Christ mentions in the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus. Lazarus was obviously alert and conscious when the condemned man asked that Lazarus should come over to give him a sip of water. Now whether or not Christ was uttering a parable to explain the notion of scripture and the tendency stubborn humans to deny the truth even when confronted with a man so risen from the dead(in physical corporeal form) or teaching from a true event, he WAS relating real conditions as they occur after death. There is a great gulf fixed between the condenmed and the blessed, there is some awareness of each other, and they are obviously self aware and awake. What-ever else they are aware of, only God knows.
Armydoc wrote: You, throughout this thread, have boldly brought forth an interpretation of EENS which is in conflict with current Church teaching and is in conflict with the interpretation of the vast majority of Catholics who frequent this forum.
It sure looks like you are in conflict with yourself. Who is the real you? You either agree with me or you don't. You can't have it both ways.
It is not necessarily heretical, for salvation is accessible to EVERY LIVING person no matter what religion. Accessible means available. If that said instead as below, then it would be heretical:
"Those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, can be saved if they die in their religion."
Heresy is a serious accusation, one just does not throw it out there from one ambiguous statement, like a kneejerk reaction. Are you a sedevacantes?
Anyone who died before Christ, was carried away by the Angels to Abrham's Bosom. The side of Sheol, of the dead, where they waited for the price to be paid of their ransom. The wicked dead, were in torment, but not THE lake of fire, everlasting torment, on the other side of Sheol, the Abussos.
In this state, YES. Conscientiousness occurs. The rich man was VERY aware of what was going on and wished his brothers, still living to be warned. Those dead do NOT sleep, do not rest. No rest for the wicked.
When Jesus was on the cross he Promised the Thief, he would BE in Paradise, Abrahams Bosom THAT DAY! They both died, Jesus being the LAST of the dead and first born 3 days later. ALL the good left Sheol. Adam, Moses, The Thief, and Jesus and went to heaven, where they, labor to build a house for Jesus's bride. The Church.
Regardless of denomination. The saved, the redeemed, the blessed. Catholic, Protestant, I would bet even a few cultists, as long as the did repent and believe, even if they had HORRID doctrine all around them. That bride, Jesus is going to come GET. Mary is part of that body. No other role for her. Here or then.
As Jesus himself said. When the woman said Blessed is the one who nursed you, "Rather, blessed are those who Believe."
We do not, I think, have any disagrement on the word "Rather". Which means, NO ... Think THIS instead.
So, back to the old testament. Those dead DID speak. DID know. The wicked STILL DO. If you want rest, sleep, then believe and you won't be bothered with this nonsense going on.
If this world matters to you, be unrepentant and you WILL stay awake, knowing. But that is not a comfort.
So, let us discuss SLEEP. As used in the KJV. I am sorry if you do not study Hebrew or Greek, as they do provide the keys missing in English.
Blessed for you, however, is that MANY others have and thus through books, translators and software, we can all be educated.
The word Sleep in the Hebrew meaning common sleep as in night time rest for 8 hours, is (yashen), which occurs 19 times in 19 verses in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV.
Job 33:15 is a perfect example.
There is a DEEPER sleep which is supernatural and it is called (shehah), which occurs 23 times in 23 verses in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV.
A good example is: Zac 4:1 or Dan 2:1 this is the Dreaming Dreams sleep.
In the New Testament, normal sleep is called καθεύδω (katheudō), which occurs 23 times in 20 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV.
Luke 22:46, when Jesus uses the word asking Why his Disciples could not keep watch with him the night he was taken. They were sleeping Normally and just tired.
Now the sleep of the dead, is κοιμάω (koimaō), which occurs 19 times in 18 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV.
This is the word used in John 11:11 for Lazarus the dead guy later raised, not the beggar.
This is the word used in all of 1 Cor 15, 1 Thes, and 2nd Peter 3:4
So, I hope, this puts to rest (pun intended) our sleep topic.
And to the beginning issue, YES, we are presently Bound, in Christ to all those who are both dead and living IN Him.
All those given to Him by the Father, He will not lose any. Not even to the Grave or the gates of Hell. They REST, waiting for his Shout "Bride I am here, come to me".
When they hear this, they rise first and We, if still living are "caught up" "Harpozo" in the Greek, "Raptos" in the Latin, raptured in the KJV, to be with Him. You, Me, Mary, Stephen, Paul, Peter, Constantine, all together all at once. In the twinkling of an eye.
I don’t think this puts the matter to “rest” so to speak. Just a small quibble that can only be cleared up “after death” anyway or at the arrival of Christ. There is consciousness after death for those who are in Jesus and I don’t think that changed after Christ was resurrected. Christ said he was preparing a place for us, implying that death for the believer was only an intermediate state. I’m not so open or closed to your interpretations just saying we can’t know or won’t know anything about it all until we “get there”!
Now whether or not we experience our death and in the crossing whether it happened a 1000 years ago or just five minutes ago temporally, we all find our selves and each other all at once in the same place and the same instant awaiting and receiving our incorruptible bodies before the temporally still alive in Christ...that is another subject of lively discussion. For example if one died now, would one be surprised to find Stephen the Martyr(stoned 2000 years ago) saying from his perspective, that he had just arrived there himself?
There are a lot of odd anecdotal stories, of grieving family members suddenly being visited by the living presence of their dearly departed(no apparitions just a strong sense of their presence), who then were able to let go and move on enough to function with some peace. CS Lewis wrote of such an experience in a “Grief Observed” which occured during his mourning over the death of his wife Joy Davidman. There are a number of Christian near death experiences that suggest that a lot more stuff is happening after death than what we had imagined. There are NDE’s concerning folks on the brink of Hell, but Jesus saves them at the brink. Yes,there are some are who yet alive who had died(happens on the mission fields especially) for some period of time but have been resurrected when prayed for. Were they pretty much dead, all the way but not quite certainly dead...who knows?
My own grand father, who had been at the point of death for some time, suddenly opened his eyes and sat up smiling and grinning and reached out his hands and appeared to grasp something and was shaking his hand like someone who shakes another’s hand in greeting. They said he looked extremely happy to see whoever was there, then he lay back down and “went to sleep” this time permanently in the physical sense. My grandfather was a wonderful man and Christian, and he always had an outstretched hand to anyone who came his way...he seems to have died the same way!
So, to "expose" something, you lie. You are a liar. Is that Christian to you?. Don't you know that; one can't lie, even to save the world? It is a sin.
Here's one for you:
There are few good examples of Christians in this world. FEW.
My years have taught me that the litmus test of a REAL Christian is marriage and birth control. Real Christians stay married till death and have as many children as God sends. They don't use birth control. If I see a person who calls themselves Christian and is divorced and remarried, I know that they are hypocrites. If I see a couple with no children because they use birth control, I know they have not in God's Grace.
How many Christians like that do you know?
Well a lot of Muslims must be Christians then...proof of a Christian is that they stay married and have lots of children?...Lots of Orthodox Jews do that! Mormons do that too!
I do believe that might be contrary to the written Word of God. “There is One Mediator between God and man - the Man Christ Jesus.” Mary died for no one! Mary has no power to forgive sin! Mary had to have her own sin forgiven! Mary did not ascend into heaven and she was not raised from the dead! Mary does not sit at the right hand of God with all power and authority — only Jesus has that role.
I've also heard this often from catholics...however the vatican does not agree with them...it states clearly on the vatican website...so Rome does not agree if you don't belong to the catholic church you aren't a Christian...they believe there are Christians in other churches as well.
Interesting is that indeed the scriptures state Moses body was hidden. Israel surely would have made some sort of hommage, alter, or idol of Moses...they were not yet purged from their former beliefs which were often paganish, bad habits take time to break.
But nothing is stated of Mary in that respect...so she certainly wasn’t seen in God’s eyes as worthy to have her body hidden....nor that she assended either...which then pretty much concludes she is in the ground as far as her body is concerned.
I was speaking to the paucity of info in the scriptures as to the final resting places of the various saints and heros of the Bible and likening that to God Hiding Moses body. The Holy Spirit simply didn’t want that info known to future readers of the Bible.
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