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To: metmom
the poor needed to be helped

Well the poor do need to be helped... and for anyone to use that as an excuse to vote for a democrat is just mind-boggling. I hope you realize those people are idiots, religious affiliation not-withstanding.

I also hope everyone in this thread realizes the problems with the Catholic vote are somewhat more complex than some of the talking points being fired back and forth. I hope everyone learned about the way the democrats successfully captured those waves of Catholic immigrants and demonized the Republicans in high school so I won't go into that here.

As to those who are saying "Once a Catholic always a Catholic", in a sense that is correct. Anyone who leaves the Church by heresy or schism may return at any time usually by entering a confessional and putting things right with God and His Holy Church. There may be a required public statement depending on the situation.

There are two types of excommunication; automatic and declared. The procurement, facilitation or act of abortion is a sin considered so scandalous that it incurs automatic excommunication. The guilty party has to know about it though. Unlike in secular cases, in ecclesiastical law, ignorance of the law is sometimes an excuse.

Now I'd like to think that all Catholics, or even all practicing Catholics at least in the United States are fully aware of what the Church teaches about abortion... I'd also like to think that my plans to purchase a thousand shares of Apple stock 14 years ago had come to fruition, but that didn't happen either. Unfortunately Catholics in the United States have been so poorly taught for the last 40 years that I'd be surprised if the majority could name the Three Persons of the Blessed Trinity.

In one way of understanding this though, a person puts himself outside of the communion of the Church through any grave sin, in a sense that person has excommunicated himself through sin because he has turned away from God. Normally, the Church teaches, because of human weakness a penitent sinner requires the "medicine" available in the Sacrament of Penance (confession) although a perfectly contrite person is forgiven by God at the moment of repentance.

Then there's the whole issue of "cultural Catholics". In a similar way we also find ourselves living in a sea of "cultural Americans", people who grew up here, enjoy the benefits of our society but who nevertheless have no particular allegiance to our form of government or our common heritage.

We cringe (or at least we should) at the idea of people across the world identifying most of our politicians and entertainers as Americans. I believe Barney Frank is supposed to be a Jew, would anyone here think he's a GOOD Jew? Bill Clinton is or was supposedly a Southern Baptist, on what planet? Do we want either one of those guys popping into the mind of some Frenchman whenever he thinks of Americans? No of course not! We want that Frenchman to think of the Americans who stood up for freedom and liberty, who fought and died so the people of France could be free of foreign oppression. Instead of course, they think of Jerry Lewis, which is probably better than thinking of Barney Frank or Bill Clinton all things considered.

My dog is a better Catholic than Nancy Pelosi and he's never set paw in a church. Why isn't she formally excommunicated? Because almost 50 years ago Pope John XXIII said this: "Nowadays however, the Spouse of Christ prefers to make use of the medicine of mercy rather than that of severity. She consider that she meets the needs of the present day by demonstrating the validity of her teaching rather than by condemnations. Not, certainly, that there is a lack of fallacious teaching, opinions, and dangerous concepts to be guarded against and dissipated. But these are so obviously in contrast with the right norm of honesty, and have produced such lethal fruits that by now it would seem that men of themselves are inclined to condemn them, particularly those ways of life which despise God and His law..."

And all the people said: Reverend Dude! What the heck have you been smoking and where can we get some?

I don't know, I'm baffled. But yes, he really thought everyone was just as holy as he was and the Catholic Church has been suffering under that delusion for two generations. I think though, that we are very close to sobering up.

251 posted on 08/08/2010 12:56:32 AM PDT by Legatus
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To: Legatus
Bill Clinton is or was supposedly a Southern Baptist, on what planet?

Bill Clinton has been mentioned a lot on this thread as a Protestant which he was or is, but Protestants voted against him being President of the United States, Catholic voters voted for him, they also voted for Gore in 2000.

In 1996 when Clinton was picking up 41% of the Protestant vote, he received 53% of the Catholic vote.

254 posted on 08/08/2010 1:09:43 AM PDT by ansel12 (Mitt: "I was an independent during the time of Reagan-Bush. I'm not trying to return to Reagan-Bush")
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To: Legatus
We cringe (or at least we should) at the idea of people across the world identifying most of our politicians and entertainers as Americans. I believe Barney Frank is supposed to be a Jew, would anyone here think he's a GOOD Jew? Bill Clinton is or was supposedly a Southern Baptist, on what planet? Do we want either one of those guys popping into the mind of some Frenchman whenever he thinks of Americans? No of course not!

very, very well put. Bill Clintoon or peanut Carter as model Baptists? ha ha ha!
255 posted on 08/08/2010 1:10:39 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)
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To: Legatus
Well the poor do need to be helped... and for anyone to use that as an excuse to vote for a democrat is just mind-boggling. I hope you realize those people are idiots, religious affiliation not-withstanding.

And yet that was their rationale. I think that the reason that we're in the government mess we're in today in regards to social programs, is in large part due to the church's (and not just Catholics, but ALL Christian denominations) abdication of their obligation to help the poor. You're absolutely right. Voting the responsibility off to the government is NOT fulfilling that command of Christ's

Now I'd like to think that all Catholics, or even all practicing Catholics at least in the United States are fully aware of what the Church teaches about abortion...

You know, that's what the rest of us couldn't understand about why those Catholics voted Dem. Their response was *Yeah, but....*

Come to think of it, I STILL haven't figured out how Catholics continue to do it.

The reason that I see the Catholic vote as the tipping point in the elections, is that not every denomination which is labeled Protestant, really believes the Bible. Many of them have abandoned the truth of it and deny the virgin birth, the atonement, the incarnation, etc. It doesn't surprise me any that they vote liberal.

What does continue to confound me is the Catholics who vote like that in spite of the church's position on the issue.

321 posted on 08/08/2010 7:31:08 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Legatus

FWIW, the one person who voted the most staunchly Democrat was brilliant, a very committed practicing Catholic who really knew what he believed, and was the one of the few people (a handful, literally) who I ever met in my life who I trusted completely in every area of life.

I could have given him a million dollars cash to take care of for me and return it in a year and I’d get it back, with interest. Tremendous integrity. But I could never figure out his voting practices.


323 posted on 08/08/2010 7:35:53 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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