Posted on 07/18/2010 6:04:05 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
Sorry MarkBsnr, I mentioned you and did not ping you.
I'll bite, is this the idea that the church has replaced Israel? I'm not conversant in it for a couple of reasons.
First:Hebrews 9:27
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
It doesn't affect me.
Second: As noted upthread, I am kept by Jesus as a believer, nothing can take me from His hand. I am His. All the eschatology business doesn't matter to me. Rapture or not, death before the Second Coming of Christ or not, I am the Lord's. Either way, in one case I will see Jesus returning as a member of the Church Militant or the Church Victorious.
That's all you got out of that???
And I see the Names "Wonderful" and "Counsellor" applying to the Spirit as well as the Son.
What if Martin Luther was also apathetic about REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY as first taught by the Roman Catholic Church. Remember, this is the same group that brought us the ideas of coredemtrix Mary and immaculate conception. Is there a chance Luther became antisemitic? Did Hitler use any of Luther’s ideas about Jews? What if the key to understanding the times we live in understanding the roles of Israel and the Church? Speaking of the times we live in, I know exactly what I am going to do when a loaf of bread is $5000.
He expressed like many in his day views that are antisemitic. Was he? He followed Christ, listened and studied the words of the Apostles all of whom were Jewish. I believe he was frustrated the Jews of the day didn't convert.
Did Hitler use any of Luther’s ideas about Jews?
Are you asking if Luther called for the extermination of the subhuman Jewish nation man, women, child. If so, no. Did Hitler do what Hitler wanted in relation to the Jews, yeah. While he needed no other inspiration some Nazis consulted with the Grand Mufti to see how Muslims dealt with Jews. In case you don't know, Hitler was an evil man. I doubt he needed others to make him that way.
What if the key to understanding the times we live in understanding the roles of Israel and the Church?
What if it is? So what? Can you escape the times? No. What is the task of a Christian? To try and predict what will happen next in the world? Not according to Christ. We should know the times, so we can use our time on earth to spread the Gospel, to reach souls for Christ. The Bible says that the time is short many times, are you going to spend that time deciphering events trying to discern an unknowable date, or keep your lamp full of oil awaiting your Redeemer doing His work that you were meant to do. You can't stop time, you can only use the time you have wisely in the service of your King, not trying to be the first one on the block to win the Second Coming pool. For a hymn reference try Hark the Voice of Jesus Calling
I know exactly what I am going to do when a loaf of bread is $5000.
So do I, eat something else. Seriously, do you think you will add a day to your life worrying about these things in the context of your time on this earth? Remember the parable of the rich farmer who would tear down his own barns and build new ones to store his increase and have sustenance to last him a long time. He was a fool, as his soul was demanded of him the day he finished his preparations.
What if Martin Luther was also apathetic about REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY as first taught by the Roman Catholic Church. Remember, this is the same group that brought us the ideas of coredemtrix Mary and immaculate conception.
Neither of which is Lutheran doctrine. Replacement theology saves no one. Delivering the Gospel, the Word of God can save. Where do you want your effort noted.
In that case it depends on his political affiliation.
I think maybe you do not understand the nature of discourse among people of varying views? Just asking how it looks like from over there is no indication that the same thing is being viewed from over here.
Those quotes neither answer the question I am asking nor explain your opinion to someone who has questions about it.
I mean this: We papists can look at a text in I John and triumphantly wave it about as ‘proof’ that there is a Biblical distinction between mortal and venial sin. Guess what. Our opponents will not be persuaded. We have to do more if we are to make out point clear and believable.
Similarly, those texts may ‘prove’ something to you, but they are not clear answers to my question. If I work at it, I can see that you are saying something like, “If you have to ask if you are saved, you aren’t.”
But there are ample texts which SEEM to propose the idea that one could be like St. Paul and still lose out at the end; one could call on the name of the Lord but still be denied by Him at the end; one could be summoned before Him and be sent away not on the basis of ‘faith’ but on thee mercy shown to the least of His brethren.
In one of those collections of “I was was not a Catholic and now I am,” stories a young lady got “saved” many times because she was not SURE she was saved.
Now I can read that as possibly some kind of psychiatric disorder, depression or somesuch. Because of such illnesses, I hesitate to tell somebody a feeling or an assurance of some kind is diagnostic of one’s soul’s health. For some of us, faith, is an “infused virtue” a given strength which we have to exercise with determination while our family, friends, and internal chemistry cry out against it.
Such folks to not FEEL assurance. They clutch to the proposition that God loves them, in spite of the shrieking witnesses to the contrary, NOT because they FEEL loved but, well, for some other reason. [Hint: grace.] They hold on though beset by doubts and uncertainties. IMHO their faith is a true miracle because it is unaccompanied by any ease or satisfaction. They truly keep their eyes on the prize.
I think one problem with the “forensic not infused righteousness” view is that it SEEMS to separate reality from, um, let’s say classification.
If God “imputes” righteousness to me, simply, then what does righteousness mean? This is one of those pesky ‘leaning to my own understanding’ things. If we say “God is righteous,” or even “God is righteousness” we are appealing (at least so it seems) to a concept “righteousness” which we generally think has a meaning apart from Divinity. Otherwise the statement is really “God is I know not what.”
That’s one hint of a line of enquiry. Here’s another:
God’s word is active, efficacious. He has but to SAY “Let there be light,” and — shazam! — the utility bill is in the mail!
So I suggest that (I’m not saying this is a new idea to anyone) when God imputes righteousness it’s just a matter of moving the sinner out of pen A into pen B. The very idea that the Ruler of the universe loves me just because helps me toward righteousness. The imputation returns not empty but waters my soul bringing forth good things.
Gimme some feedback, please. I’m just tossing stuff in the air here.
Let us read the chapter in context.
1 John 5: 6 This is the one who came through water and blood, 2 Jesus Christ, not by water alone, but by water and blood. The Spirit is the one that testifies, and the Spirit is truth. 7 So there are three that testify, 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are of one accord. 9 If we accept human testimony, the testimony of God is surely greater. Now the testimony of God is this, that he has testified on behalf of his Son. 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has this testimony within himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar by not believing the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony: God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever possesses the Son has life; whoever does not possess the Son of God does not have life.
13 3 I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God. 14 And we have this confidence in him, that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us in regard to whatever we ask, we know that what we have asked him for is ours. 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly. 18 We know that no one begotten by God sins; but the one begotten by God he protects, and the evil one cannot touch him. 19 We know that we belong to God, and the whole world is under the power of the evil one. 20 We also know that the Son of God has come and has given us discernment to know the one who is true. And we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. 21 Children, be on your guard against idols.
This passage here is an exhortation. Notice the mixture of - testify, accord, may know, confidence, discernment, etc. This is a rah rah speech, closing out the letter. This is not surety, it is conditional. What do I mean by that?
- 11 And this is the testimony: God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever possesses the Son has life; whoever does not possess the Son of God does not have life.
Conditional: each man must possess (which is not the same as just believing) the Son.
- 13 3 I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.
Conditional: each must believe in the name of the Son of God before eternal life may be known. It does not say that this is the only prerequisite, just one of them.
- 14 And we have this confidence in him, that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us in regard to whatever we ask, we know that what we have asked him for is ours.
This says that He will grant us things only if it is His will. So, we know that He will do things according to His will, but just in fancier language. Not quite a Pauline sales job, but better than average.
- 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.
Should pray. So if I pray for somebody, then as long as the sin is not deadly, a one time prayer from me will save my brother's worthless carcass, right? Am I the saviour of my brother, in this instance? What if I pray for my brother, and then on the next occasion of him sinning, pray for him again? Is my brother saved twice? Does he go to the second level of Heaven? That is why one must take the verses in context.
- 18 We know that no one begotten by God sins; but the one begotten by God he protects, and the evil one cannot touch him.
Obvious reference to Jesus here, but do those John is writing to get it? Or might they think that it could refer to them? Or is John exhorting them not to sin, with this line referring to behaviours?
- 19 We know that we belong to God, and the whole world is under the power of the evil one. 20 We also know that the Son of God has come and has given us discernment to know the one who is true. And we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. 21 Children, be on your guard against idols.
Closing the deal here, and appealing to the sense of Christian community as against the pagans and Jews who do not know the One who is true.
I would *think* dissing one’s mother would be somewhat of a violation of “honor thy father and thy mother.”
I dont think a mild rebuke is a sin. Obviously, however the Savior meant it, it was NOT sin. Jesus WAS sinless.
I must have missed it. Thanks for clearing it up. It is true that the level of Catholic hospitality varied slightly.
I'm glad Martin didn't obey the summons. I'm not sure the Catholics had the reach where he lived without deniability.
Are you kidding? The only reason that we know that Henry VIII was able to catch and have Tyndale killed was because he was open and bragged about it and had him brought to trial. If he kept his mouth shut and simply had him assassinated, a common act in those times, then Tyndale's death would have been a complete mystery.
Perhaps without sanction if only for the reason he was costing some of them good commissions.
Fact: the Church did not have him assassinated.
Really? Vatican II confirmed once again that the Jewish People are special in God's eyes and separate from all the other nations. Paul, in Romans 9 and 11, speaks at length on the subject.
If xone rejects Replacement theology, then we agree. If he does not, then we disagree.
Then “disrespecting” (dissing) wouldn’t be correct. Correct?
Which becomes a problem when some interpret these scriptures in error.
Yes, He honored his father and His mother.
Which becomes a problem when some interpret these scriptures in error.
It would be interesting to try to figure out who are really Christians and who aren't. For example, are the LDS any less Christian than Oneness Pentecostals? How about Christian Science? What about John Hagee? The Children of God? Jim Jones' People's Temple? David Koresh's Branch Davidians?
Or you could get really orthodox and limit it to the Catholics. Where might you draw the line?
I see. Thanks for the explanation as to your beliefs.
Not all. But I consider this significant: that you believe that the Holy Spirit "tries", in effect saying that the Holy Spirit is not enough and that something else is required for one's salvation.
I'm still unclear how this jibes with Paul. If you do what Paul lists, can you still inherit the Kingdom? Or is that if you do them and then repent you can? Or that if you do these acts you haven't repented? Or that if you are already saved, you won't do these acts at all?
When God regenerates us, we are forgiven eternally, we are forgiven of all sin, past, present, future.
We are made Children of God when we were dead in trespasses and sin. We were children of wrath, enemies of God but now we have BEEN adopted as CHILDREN.
Paul's description talks about those WHO LIVE in sin, not those who fight against sin and occasionally lose.
Those who have been adopted, have been forgiven for ALL SIN, including future sin. Some might say, then we can sin all we want. Paul answers this objection in Rom 6! The True Gospel brings this objection as testified by Paul who answers the objection.
We are GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE, NOT CONDITIONAL LIFE. Eternal life by definition can never end. If it CAN end, it IS NOT Eternal.
When we sin against the Father, the fellowship has been marred. We confess our sin and restore fellowship with the Father. Just like any earthly family. If I wrong my Dad, there are bad feelings between us, until I confess and apologize for my wrong and restore a loving relationship.
God will not dissown His Children but will chastise them, like any good parent.
Bringing up future possible sin in regards to salvation, makes salvation based on works, which is certainly not biblical.
Jesus came to Save Sinners, not those trying to justify themselves. Works to keep salvation, denies the all sufficient sacrafice.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.