Is faith that Jesus is God necessary for salvation in your view?
BUZZ OFF
Posted on 07/18/2010 6:04:05 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
“Likewise, in this prophecy of the Incarnate Word, several Names of God are announced, Names which we might apply to the Father or the Holy Spirit:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. – Isaiah 9:6”
Is the Messiah being called the Father, Almighty God, Jehovah, YHWH? No. the titles applied to the Messiah properly fit Christ Jesus and do not refer to the Father or holy spirit.
Does your group believe the scripture says Jesus is God?
I didn’t really notice your typo.... But I don’t see that making an issue of them is productive anyway. I’ve made my share of them and it happens. I always notice mine just as I hit the *Post* button and you can’t take it back at that point.
I was just thinking family affair not that only the family was invited. That didn’t come across right.
Anyway, it’s typically the family who provides the food and I suspect that Mary was involved with that some how. Since she told the servants to do whatever He told them, she obviously expected Him to fix the problem and I don’t see that as a job of just any old guest, which is why I think it was a wedding somewhere in Jesus’ family. I think that Joseph would have done it had he been around, and whether Jesus was the oldest son or the only son, the fact that she went to Him indicates that Joseph was out of the picture by that time.
And I still don’t think she expected Him to do a miracle to fix it.
” I still don’t think she expected Him to do a miracle to fix it.”
True—we aren’t privileged in this life to “read her mind”.
But we will know when “all that is hidden will be revealed.”
God bless.
ROE
There is none righteous. Nobody is going to seek a savior if they don’t see their need for one. Until one recognizes that they are completely corrupt, wicked, and perverted, they’re not going to seek a savior. They’re going to think that their own good works are good enough to earn a place in heaven. They’re going to learn the hard way that that’s not going to cut it.
Jeremiah 17:9
New International Version (©1984)
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
English Standard Version (©2001)
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
“The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?
King James Bible
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
American King James Version
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
American Standard Version
The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly corrupt: who can know it?
Douay-Rheims Bible
The heart is perverse above all things, and unsearchable, who can know it?
Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.""perverted, deviant, degenerate, debased, immoral, unprincipled; debauched, dissolute, licentious, lecherous, prurient, indecent, sordid; wicked, vile, nefarious; informal warped, twisted, sick…?
When did Mary do this? Is she still complete wicked and corrupt, perverted, deviant, degenerate, debased, immoral, unprincipled; debauched, etc.?
BUZZ OFF
I think that when one considers the great number of NT texts dealing with the importance of works, there is some theological burden to put 'works' in the context of the new life.
Clearly the important thing is what bkaycee says, the works are the fruits of grace, the fruits of the grace which is faith.
Me, myself, personally, I find Ephesians 2:10 useful:
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
TO work (overwork?) this image, associated with walking is progress, so that in some sense we say the walking is the means whereby we progress. So God recreates us and sets us walking (walks in us?) along the Way. The result of walking is progress.
In that highly metaphorical sense we can think of works bringing "rewards". But all depends on our recreation and on God working in us both to will and to do.
IMHO any notion of merit (for us) which is not firmly based on that notion and which is not entertained by someone whose mind is not often directed to that notion will lead to pride, despair, futility and therefore is NOT the Gospel.
IMHO
Once again, no argument from me. Well said.
OTOH Most "Catholics" and "Protestants" don't have, and can't be expected to have, an understanding at your level.
Your assignment, if you choose to carry it out, is to "splain" it to them in elementary terms. This message will self destruct in 30 seconds.
The question I have is: how are we created IN CHRIST? When does that exactly happen? You can't walk in the good works God prepared beforehand if you're not created IN CHRIST. And if you aren't IN CHRIST, then all the good works in the world aren't going to get you IN CHRIST.
I believe Mad Dawg made that point effectively with his affirmation of what bkaycee said. "Clearly the important thing is what bkaycee says, the works are the fruits of grace, the fruits of the grace which is faith."
BUZZ OFF
Anyway, it’s typically the family who provides the food and I suspect that Mary was involved with that some how. Since she told the servants to do whatever He told them, she obviously expected Him to fix the problem and I don’t see that as a job of just any old guest, which is why I think it was a wedding somewhere in Jesus’ family. I think that Joseph would have done it had he been around, and whether Jesus was the oldest son or the only son, the fact that she went to Him indicates that Joseph was out of the picture by that time.
And I still don’t think she expected Him to do a miracle to fix it.
It is doubtful whether Jesus mother ever quite knew what to expect from Jesus. He showed his fierce independence as a 12 year old.
Luke 2:
[41] Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the Passover.
[42] And when he was twelve years old, they went up according to custom;
[43] and when the feast was ended, as they were returning, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. His parents did not know it,
[44] but supposing him to be in the company they went a day's journey, and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintances;
[45] and when they did not find him, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking him.
[46] After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions;
[47] and all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers.
[48] And when they saw him they were astonished; and his mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously."
[49] And he said to them, "How is it that you sought me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?"
[50] And they did not understand the saying which he spoke to them.
[51] And he went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them; and his mother kept all these things in her heart.
[52] And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man.
What if the pope and RCC agrees with the alien, That Jesus Christ was one of them.
I THINK that a LOT of the glibness on this thread and forum is getting all set to crash and burn . . . most folks even hereon seem to have absolutely no clue what’s coming down the Pike.
. . . much less be intellectually or spiritually prepared for it.
Oh, if we could only all work with the same dictionary. Sigh!
THAT WOULD BE A PRETTY SUBSTANTIVE MIRACLE.
I find some congruent overlap with your perspective yet again.
. . . though I am convinced that SALVATION is by Faith alone.
Well the bureau keeps disavowing knowledge of my mission or my existence. Which, in a way, kind of frees me up.
But believe me, I DO try to 'splain it whenever I get a chance. It's especially important for the "formation" of people seeking full communion. The last thing I want is to be responsible for a bunch of 'works righteousness Christians.'
"Teeth-grittin' Catholics" -- "Thanks, Lord, I'll take it from here." Good Lord, deliver us.
You seem to think it is fair to criticize another’s religious beliefs while your religious beliefs cannot be criticized or even discussed.
Is this true?
Well, make it by Grace alone, and I'm on board.
I keep finding myself using the 'vaccination' image. You get the vaccination. Your 'sensoria' are only about the moment - usually an "OW!" (It may be relevant to point out here that in one of the rabies series I didn't even feel the needle. It was so very fine and the nurse placed it just right.)
But the vaccination considered comprehensively is not just the moment of injection. In ways utterly beyond our control or willing (so far as we know) it starts a series of processes the end result of which is -- well, how about THAT? -- the ability to resist evil!
So our subjective experience is one thing. The objective reality of grace entering our lives and rearranging the furniture is another, and sometimes (always?) it's quite disproportionate to the experience.
Of course, I have no recollection of being Baptized. I DO have recollections of a VERY carnal life and mind, at war with a desire, an itch that would not leave me alone, to find what we technically refer to as the "Great Hoo Hoo in the Sky."
So for about 22 years, from splashing (ahem "affusion") to the moment when I realized that when it says Christ came for sinners it was talking about MOI (not that I didn't know I was a sinner, just that I didn't know He came for ME too!), I have to say it was like the itch at the vaccination site, or maybe a litle sense of strangeness.
(Usually after one or other of the 5 vaccine shots one feels a little "'flu-y" for a day or two.)
And, of course, even after the "Are YOU talkin'a ME?" moment, there was plenty to be done in and through me -- and there still is.
But you know what? Whether God does it all or somehow with my cooperation (and HOW could I cooperate if He did not enable me to? [Hint: I couldn't]) I don't really care. It's just pick up foot, move forward, put foot down.
He may make my feet like hind's feet in somebody else's eyes. In mine, they are lead.
E pur, se muove! And the glory is God's. What would I do with glory, for crying out loud?
MUCH MUCH AGREE.
CERTAINLY IT IS ALL GRACE HOWEVER IT’S SLICED.
The Totally Depraved theology believes that some are created in the womb who will never, can never, be given Grace. They are doomed in the womb to be nothing but tinder for the fires of Hell.
So, there is a requirement beyond before which Grace even comes into play.
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