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To: Mad Dawg
make it by Grace alone, and I'm on board.

The Totally Depraved theology believes that some are created in the womb who will never, can never, be given Grace. They are doomed in the womb to be nothing but tinder for the fires of Hell.

So, there is a requirement beyond before which Grace even comes into play.

7,280 posted on 08/06/2010 12:50:52 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr
Well, I don't think that's exactly Calvinism as she is spoke.

I mean "Grace" χαρις just means 'favor', is that not so? And if God favors the elect, and withholds His favor from the damned, the elect don't need any more than favor.

I understand that one of the changes in the new rite will be from "shed for you and for all" to "shed for you and for many". I do not MEAN to be a Jansenist but I do think a great mystery is here. If I were to criticize Calvin, it would be on the basis that he didn't take his shoes off before he went stomping all over this mysterious ground.

WE say: God desires all to be saved. We also say that to the extent that we are in a state of grace, it's, uh, grace. We are, or ought to be, as averse to boasting as any one who reads Paul.

We acknowledge that Hell, as far as we can tell, already has folks who have taken up permanent residence and wait only for their bodies to exacerbate their torment.

At this point we say "TILT!" Does not compute. "Eez a mystery," which I think we are right to say.

Our Calvinist brethren draw the attractive (from a logical POV) conclusion that God must not have intended them to be saved.

I find the contrary in Paul, so I just put my hand on my mouf. It's over my head.

7,282 posted on 08/06/2010 1:07:41 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee. here)
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To: D-fendr
The Totally Depraved theology believes that some are created in the womb who will never, can never, be given Grace. They are doomed in the womb to be nothing but tinder for the fires of Hell.

So, somebody say to me, "God hates me," and I'm supposed to say, "Well, I dunno; you might be right!"

Ouch!

7,312 posted on 08/06/2010 3:46:31 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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