Posted on 07/18/2010 6:04:05 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
I am certain that it is an opinion of many Protestants that Catholics follow man made doctrine and traditions, which, I do not dispute their free will to do so.
But, and here we go again, I also am certain that this opinion is itself a man made opinion.
This is what I mean by arguing in circles. It always comes back to authority and upon whom authority rests. A Protestant believes that it rests with him under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. A Catholic believes that it rests with the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
A Protestant may disagree, but without declaring for himself sole interpretive authority, cannot definitively say that what he believes is the absolute truth.
Scripture supports Tradition, Tradition does not contradict Scripture and the Magisterium is the successors of the apostles who proclaim, protect and defend the faith. Christ is the Head and the Holy Spirit is the Paraclete( 1. The third person in the Trinity; Jesus promised the Apostles that he would send the Holy Spirit after his Crucifixion and Resurrection; it came on Pentecost.[Wordnet]
2. An advocate; one called to aid or support; hence, the Consoler, Comforter, or Intercessor; — a term applied to the Holy Spirit.)and we are the body.
There will never be agreement on this as long as Protestants reject the authority of the Church and her understanding of the three components of that authority.
That’s fine with me, but not that Protestants claim that authority while rejecting the Catholics right to do so as well.
Then we come back to, but it’s not found in Scripture! But, the Catholic says yes it is, but it is hidden within the explicit text and the typography of the Old Testament and the history and tradition of the church.
There is no common ground. Fine. But, just as a Protestant rejects the Church’s authority, I reject his authority.
Because 33,000 denominations did not evolve from earlier schisms, the spontaneously generated....LOL.
You do realize that the source for the 33,000 "denoms" also lists the Roman Catholic Church as 5th on the all time murder list with 5 million deaths.
Do you also stand by that number as well?
Quix said in an earlier post yesterday evening that Catholics claim Mary is the “Mother of Almighty God”. I stated in my response that “Mary is the Mother of God”. I added the word, “Indeed”.
I had no idea he was talking about anything other than Mary being the Mother of Jesus, the Son of God made man, co-equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit in Majesty. It is theologically correct, though not common, to call Jesus “Almighty God”, as He is co-equal in power and majesty with the other Persons of the Trinity. This is basic Christian doctrine. This is what I thought he meant when I first replied to him.
He came back with the FALSE charge: that I believed Mary to be the Mother of God the Father. He used the term “Father/God” in this post. In his original post he didn't use that term. He merely used the term “Almighty God”.
This is a perfect example of intellectual DISHONESTY by attempting to derail the discussion with a FALSE CHARGE, created out of thin air.
I attempted to clarify the whole mess late last night in my post #6856.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2554678/posts?page=6856#6856
Apparently that was not enough. He's back here this morning with a blizzard of posts feigning outrage that a Catholic would claim Mary to be the Mother of “Almighty Father/God”. A Catholic would claim no such thing. I claimed NO SUCH THING.
The whole thing is so dishonest it makes me sick!
D-fendr’s original post:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2554678/posts?page=6584#6584
Quix’s first response; claims Catholics call Mary the “Mother of Almighty God”.
He was responding to D-fendr’s examples of the logical principle (syllogism) that can also be used to articulate that Mary is the Mother of God (Jesus):
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2554678/posts?page=6586#6586
My response to Quix's post:; I call Mary the “Mother of God”. Since Quix was responding to a post by D-fendr that discusses the Catholic view that Mary, the Mother of Jesus, is also the Mother of God, I'm assuming here that Quix is simply adding the adjective Almighty to the noun “God” and still referring to Jesus, not God the Father. At this point, he hadn't even used the word “Father”:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2554678/posts?page=6725#6725
His accusation that myself and other Catholics consider Mary the Mother of God the Father; he uses the term “Almighty/Father God” for the first time. This comes out of thin air to throw a large monkey wrench into the discussion. Nowhere did I assert that Mary is the “Mother of Almighty/Father God”. I've never heard such a phrase before. Never:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2554678/posts?page=6766#6766
Quix repeats this FALSE charge a few posts later:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2554678/posts?page=6783#6783
I respond to his post #6762 with a colorful “INDEED!” to his phrase, “Mary is the Mother of Almighty God”, assuming, of course, he is simply adding the adjective “Almighty” and we are still talking about Jesus here, not God the Father:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2554678/posts?page=6807#6807
My post #6817 to Alamo-Girl, trying to clarify the matter. I admit that I misspoke a few posts before that, #6814, by wondering if he had meant the three Persons of the Trinity in the term “Almighty God”. Obviously I realized my mistake and clarified it in this post, #6817:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2554678/posts?page=6817#6817
Alamo-girl’s response, an interesting discussion of the issue of the “Names of God”:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2554678/posts?page=6826#6826
My final clarification on the matter last night:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2554678/posts?page=6856#6856
The first of a whole series of “outraged” responses by Quix, claiming FALSELY that Catholics believe Mary to be the “Mother of Almighty/Father God”:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2554678/posts?page=6871#6871
quote:
“ don't think I've ever ran onto a single other Christian in all my 63 years who would brazenly claim that Mary was the mother of Almighty/Father God. Someone needs to give these folks lessons in when to stop digging.”
THEN, to top it all off, he uses Pope John Paul II in an attempt to smack me down.
The ultimate in chutzpah!
THIS IS THE ENTIRE POSTING HISTORY, TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, ON THIS MATTER.
I'm not going to waste any more of the precious time God has given me on this Earth to respond to nonsense like this; nonsense that I've seen posted time and time again here.
CATHOLICS DO NOT CALL MARY THE “MOTHER OF ALMIGHTY/FATHER GOD”.
I never said it, I never meant it, and it would be nice to get a retraction.
It is not twisting or spinning to delve deeper into theology and trying to understand its meaning for us as Christians who are separated by conflicting beliefs.
The Church has seen the divisions and been hurt by them. It also acknowledges that within the Protestant faiths there is much truth and an abundant love and faith in Jesus.
Jesus declared there is one Lord, one faith, one body of Christ. What Jesus says is true, therefore how can it be that so many brothers and sisters are separate?
The Church has come to understand that they are not, that though there is not full and complete communion between us, we are nevertheless sisters and brothers in the One Lord, one faith and one body.
It matters not whether one believes they are a Catholic or whether one believes in Catholicism. The Lord has spoken and declared that there is only one Lord, one faith and one body.
That things are twisted or contradictory is again, an opinion, one that is not supported in Scripture. And, again, we come full circle to who gets to decide what exactly Scripture says. I don’t believe we will ever settle that question here. It is for the Holy Spirit to guide us to communion with one another.
” It was not “baptizing them in the names and yet there were three “names” given — incomprehensible to us humans who live in a constricted reality compared to God.”
I don’t think one can rely upon the wording of Matt. 28:20,
as a proof of the trinity since “in the name of” refers to “in the name of the Father”, “in the name of the Son”, “in the name of the holy spirit” and therefor would be singular.
Three names? Well, God has a name, Jehovah or Yahweh, Jesus has a name, Jesus, but what is the name of the holy spirit?
"THE" source? I think you are just bloviating to make a point. There are many credible sources for numbers that approximate the 33,000 number that never mention any murders at all. I am accustomed to anti-Catholics, failed Catholics and kooks finding anything they want to on the internet. I'll bet you have a source for rhubarb pie recipes that also slanders the Church.
...but he also uses the term “Almighty Father/God”. In other posts not related to this particular question, he refers to God as “His (Jesus’) Creator God”.
I have NO idea what that’s all about!
I think there’s been an attempt, deliberate or otherwise, to confuse, distract, and cloud the issues to the point where reasonable dialogue becomes impossible. His posts are for the most part an incoherent jumble of words presented in technicolor.
So, what is the 'one faith'?
What is the 'one baptism'?
What is "the Gospel of your salvation" of Eph. 1:12,13. It is the Gospel that saves. What gospel is it?
How are placed into this 'one body'?
What is the 'one hope of your calling'?
If we do not know what these things are, how are we going to unite into the one body?
In proclaiming Mary “Mother of God”, the Church thus intends to affirm that she is the “Mother of the Incarnate Word, who is God”. Her motherhood does not, therefore, extend to all the Trinity, but only to the Second Person, the Son, who, in becoming incarnate, took his human nature from her.
And thus Mary is not "the Mother of God Almighty," as you allege, dear brother in Christ. Pope John Paul II makes this crystal clear in the above excerpt.
As Alamo-Girl has written, "I prefer the title 'Mother of the Incarnate Word,' Arius notwithstanding." If we all could take a page from John Paul II and stick with his authoritative, biblically-based understanding of the matter, there would probably be less confusion among co-religionists from different Christian confessions.
Truly, I suspect we often debate right past each other because of the differences in our understandings of the words we use.
And I ask that you read Quix' post at 6994 - truly, at the root we had a difference in understanding the meaning of certain words.
The FALSE charge was made last night that Catholics believe Mary to be the Mother of God the Father (”Almighty Father/God”). Whether that charge resulted from an honest misunderstanding and wasn't a deliberate attempt to confuse the issue...I'm willing to accept that explanation. It makes sense to me. The language IS sometimes tricky.
I just hope we don't see that charge repeated here in the future.
If you are going to mention my name as posing Pope JPII's document you should have the courtesy to ping me.
Wow! This claim is amazingly identifical to several found on the internet.
One of them: Plagarized from (by?) the honest one.
However the quote is not only innacurate but meaningless in any event. 1983 Code Of Canon Law - see Canon 6
Just in case it comes up again, I've bookmarked a few of the posts here for reference.
Explanation accepted. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused in my posts.
I’m also sorry for any uncharitable words I spoke about your posts. I get too carried away sometimes in the “heat of the moment”. I’ll try to do better in the future, with God’s help.
I am not sure IF WE can unite the one body, or even if the one body is divided only in this world and not the next. That is getting into judgment, which belongs to God alone.
The Holy Spirit is the key, just as I cannot convert anyone or open anyone’s heart to the truth, I cannot put back together the rifts between Catholics and Protestants. I don’t think I am supposed to and it is not my intention when I post to a thread such as this.
I merely seek to defend my beliefs from the attacks and misrepresentations I see here.
When I am honestly questioned and sincerely respected for having a different belief, I respond in kind.
The one body exists, even if we may not see that, that is what the Church has come to realize and has it has always done, it relies on the Holy Spirit to lead us to all truths.
His will be done, and it will be done in His time and on His terms as He is ALL and nothing happens without His knowledge and His consent.
INDEED.
THX.
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