MORMON CHRISTOLOGY: A CHRIST-TEST FOR CHRISTIAN IDENTITY

Normandy posted this: "In my opinion the answer to your question is yes — if you mean people who don’t receive temple ordinances in this life.
There are many Latter-day saints who for one reason or another die before receiving temple ordinances.
Also many who have lived and died without being Mormons will receive the highest possible blessings.
“All who have died without a knowledge of this Gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom, for I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts” Doctrine and Covenants 137."

Godzilla's reply: "you said if the temple ordinances were not received in ‘this life’

Are you saying that they still need to be performed via proxy or by some other means in the afterlife."

Normandy, I question THIS statement by you..."There are many Latter-day saints who for one reason or another die before receiving temple ordinances, when your quote from D&C 137 states, "All who have died without a knowledge of this Gospel who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God."

I would like an explanation of the "reasons LDS die without knowledge of this Gospel" Are these LDS then ignorant of "this Gospel"? How did they become LDS in this ignorance? Did they have to answer the questions to obtain a temple recommend and fail the test? Were all these "many" too young to take out their "endowments" through mission prep or marriage? Does that mean a seventeen-year-old who dies before temple ordinances gets a pass to having proxy work done if he dies? Don't all seventeen-year-old mormons, including converts, have to "hear this Gospel" to even become members by this age?

Here is an answer to Godzilla's question.

you said if the temple ordinances were not received in ‘this life’

Are you saying that they still need to be performed via proxy or by some other means in the afterlife.

1. Elders’ Journal of The Church of the Latter Day Saints, 1 (July 1838): 43; emphasis added.

2. The Prophet’s initial understanding of vicarious work for the dead may have come to him as a result of the vision he received in January 1836 concerning his older brother Alvin, who had died in 1823, prior to the restoration of the gospel (D&C 137). In the vision, Joseph stated that he saw Alvin in the celestial kingdom, but wondered how he could have received such an inheritance without having received baptism under the proper authority (v. 6). It was then revealed to him that all those who died prior to the gospel being on the earth and all who would die henceforth without a knowledge of the gospel would be heirs of the celestial kingdom (vv. 7–8). With this revelation as a backdrop, the Prophet probably came to understand that while the gospel could be received by the dead following their departure from this life, the ordinance work must be performed for them by someone living in mortality.

LDS Source

well known fact in order to be a good jazz musician one must study the classical foundation

No way, some of the greatest jazz players in the world couldn't read a note. Good jazz comes from the soul.

I don’t believe that just believing in Jesus in my mind or confessing with my lips is enough
___________________________________________

And you are correct its not enough...

You have to believe in your heart...

and then it is enough...

But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. Romans 10:8-10

“Beware of the BOM poison.”

You mean this:

The Articles of Faith
of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

I don't know that we teach it

In case you don't recognize the title of this post, it is part of President Hinckley's answer to a reporter's question that appeared in the August 4 1997 issue of Time magazine. The reporter referenced the King Follett discourse. The answer supplied and the manner in which it was delivered caused the reporter to draw some false conclusions about a very important doctrine.

In that discourse, the prophet Joseph Smith said, "If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man." (See also D&C 130:22)

The article referred to Lorenzo Snow's couplet, "As man is now, God once was; as God now is, man may become." The reporter said, "God the Father was once a man as we are. This is something that Christian writers are always addressing." President Hinckley was then asked, "Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are?"

The bothersome reply

"I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it. I haven't heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don't know. I don't know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it, but I don't know a lot about it, and I don't think others know a lot about it."

The reporter wrote, "On whether his church still holds that God the Father was once a man, he sounded uncertain." That's an unfortunate conclusion. Of course I wasn't at the interview and neither were you but I'll bet the reporter mistook careful thoughtfulness for uncertainty. This doctrine is indeed deep territory and not something that is taught outside the LDS Church.

An earlier and similar interview

The San Francisco Chronicle, published an interview with President Hinckley in April of 1997. The reporter asked, "There are some significant differences in your beliefs. For instance, don't Mormon's believe that God was once a man?" President Hinckley responded, "I wouldn't say that. There is a little couplet coined, 'As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.'"

He then said, "Now that's more of a couplet than anything else. That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don't know very much about." The reporter pounced on this. "So you're saying that the church is still struggling to understand this? " President Hinckley responded, "Well, as God is, man may become. We believe in eternal progression. Very strongly."

President Hinckley's response

President Hinckley said in October 1997 General Conference: "I personally have been much quoted, and in a few instances misquoted and misunderstood. I think that's to be expected. None of you need worry because you read something that was incompletely reported. You need not worry that I do not understand some matters of doctrine.

"I think I understand them thoroughly, and it is unfortunate that the reporting may not make this clear. I hope you will never look to the public press as the authority on the doctrines of the Church." And there lies the whole point of my post today. Some members did indeed become a little concerned by the exchanges they read in the press reports of those interviews.

Does the Church still teach this?

I know this is old news but it still bothers some people when they discover the anti-Mormon attacks floating around on the Internet. President Hinckley was right. We really don't know much about how our Heavenly Father became a God. The idea that he passed through a mortal probationary state like you and me is certainly not documented in any scripture of which I know.

However, it is still taught. In the Gospel Principles manual in the chapter on exaltation we read, "Joseph Smith taught: "It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . . . He was once a man like us; . . . God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46)."

Summary and conclusion

I don't know why this should bother anyone. The doctrine is true. Joseph Smith knew a whole lot more about this than I do. President Hinckley also knew a whole lot more about this doctrine than he was willing to share with reporters who did not have the background to understand it. It must have been difficult for President Hinckley to hold back and not teach it in those interviews.

It didn't bother me when I read the interviews back in 1997 and it doesn't bother me today. However, I know it does bother some people. We each have trials of our faith. I have never depended on an intellectual understanding of the gospel in order to accept it and live it. There are some things that just can't be fully comprehended without the temple, prayer and faith.

There are some things that just can't be fully comprehended without the temple, prayer and faith. alrighty then!!!

I know who I am and what is expected of me and it has nothing to do with your STRAWMAN SPIN VERSION!

"MOTHER!!!

Do NOT come here!!

I have finally learned that MORMONism is UNTRUE!!!"

--Joseph Smith

My heart is glad for you I fine your spirit sharing and loving.

Bozo!

He has LEFT the MORMON religious Organization and you KNOW what your leaders have said about folks like THAT!!!

My heart is glad for you I fine your spirit sharing and loving.

Bozo!

He has LEFT the MORMON religious Organization and you KNOW what your leaders have said about folks like THAT!!!

I mean doctrines like THIS!

"Now, in order to have things in perspective, let me identify the three greatest heresies in all Christendom. They do not prevail among us, fortunately, but they are part of the gross and universal darkness that covers the earth and blots out from the minds of men those truths upon which salvation rests.

The greatest truth known to man is that there is a God in heaven who is infinite and eternal; that he is the creator, upholder, and preserver of all things; that he created us and the sidereal heavens and ordained and established a plan of salvation whereby we might advance and progress and become like him. The truth pertaining to him is that he is our Father in heaven, that he has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's, that he is a literal person, and that if we believe and obey his laws we can gain the exaltation that he possesses. Now that is the greatest truth and the most glorious concept known to the human mind, and the reverse of it is the greatest heresy in all Christendom.

The Christian heresy, where God is concerned, is that Deity is a spirit essence that fills the immensity of space; that he is three beings in one; that he is uncreated, incorporeal, and incomprehensible; that he is without body, parts, or passions; that he is a spirit nothingness that is everywhere and nowhere in particular present. These are concepts written in the creeds had in the churches of the world.

The second greatest truth in all eternity pertains to the divine sonship of the Lord, Jesus Christ. It includes the eternal verity that he was foreordained in the councils of eternity to come to earth and be the redeemer of men, to come and ransom men from the temporal and spiritual death brought upon them by the fall of Adam. This second greatest truth is that Christ worked out the infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice because of which all men are raised in immortality and those who believe and obey are raised also unto eternal life.

Now the second greatest heresy in all Christendom is designed to destroy the glories and wonders of the infinite and eternal atonement. It is that men are saved by some kind of lip service, by the grace of God, without work and without effort on their part.

The third greatest truth known to mankind is that the Holy Spirit of God is a revelator and a sanctifier, that he is a personage of spirit, that his assigned ministry and work in the eternal Godhead is to bear record of the Father and of the Son, to reveal them and their truths to men. His work is to cleanse and perfect human souls, to burn dross and evil out of human souls as though by fire. We call that the baptism of fire.

Now the opposite of that is the third greatest heresy in all Christendom. It is that revelation has ceased, that God's mouth is closed, that the Holy Ghost no longer inspires men, that the gifts of the Spirit were done away with after the death of the ancient apostles, and that we no longer need to follow the course they charted. "

I simply name these things; I think you will want to weigh and evaluate what is involved. I think you will want to ponder and wonder and search the scriptures. After Jesus had been teaching the Nephites as a resurrected person, giving them as much truth as in his wisdom he felt they could absorb at one time, he counseled them to go to their homes, and to ponder in their hearts the things he had said, and to pray to the Father in his name to find out if they were true, and then to come again on the morrow and he would teach them more.

The Seven Deadly Heresies BRUCE R. MCCONKIE

My heart is glad for you I fine your spirit sharing and loving.

I guess one has to actually HAVE a TR before one worries about LOSING it!

Temple Recommend questions

1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?

2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?

3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?

5 Do you live the law of chastity?

6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?

7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?

10 Are you a full-tithe payer?

11 Do your keep the Word of Wisdom?

12 Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?

13 If you have previously received your temple endowment:

Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?

14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?

15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?

If I may make a comment here, I think it is clear that LDS believe that something is required of them to receive the highest reward that God has to offer.

And just what, if you may form an opinion here; would that be?

My feeble efforts cannot cleanse me from sin, cannot raise me from the grave.

You are SUCH a tease!!! ;^)

Come on out and TELL us what LDS members have to DO to get the HIGHEST 'reward' that GOD has in store for MORMONs!

Will a non-temple mormon attain the highest heaven and become a god.

In my opinion the answer to your question is yes — if you mean people who don’t receive temple ordinances in this life.

Well; NOW we are getting somewhere.

But you've said it's your OPINION.

What does the LDS church TEACH on this subject?

“All who have died without a knowledge of this Gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom, for I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts”

Doctrine and Covenants 137.

(In context)

THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

SECTION 137

A vision given to Joseph Smith the Prophet, in the temple at Kirtland, Ohio, January 21, 1836. HC 2: 380–381. The occasion was the administration of the ordinances of the endowment as far as they had then been revealed.

1–6, The Prophet sees his brother Alvin in the celestial kingdom; 7–9, The doctrine of salvation for the dead is revealed; 10, All children are saved in the celestial kingdom.

1 The ^aheavens were ^bopened upon us, and I beheld the ^ccelestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the ^dbody or out I cannot tell.

2 I saw the transcendent ^abeauty of the ^bgate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was ^clike unto ^dcircling flames of fire;

3 Also the ^ablazing ^bthrone of God, whereon was seated the ^cFather and the ^dSon.

4 I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with ^agold.

5 I saw Father ^aAdam and ^bAbraham; and my ^cfather and my mother; my brother ^dAlvin, that has long since ^eslept;

6 And ^amarveled how it was that he had obtained an ^binheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to ^cgather Israel the second time, and had not been ^dbaptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the ^avoice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died ^bwithout a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be ^cheirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who ^awould have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will ^ajudge all men according to their ^bworks, according to the ^cdesire of their hearts.

10 And I also beheld that all ^achildren who die before they arrive at the ^byears of accountability are ^csaved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

... you sitll don’t have the spirit of the Lord to discern them...

You still are MINDREADING!

However I believe for Christ’s sacrifice to have any benefit to me, I must respond to it through faith in Him and by following His teachings.

John 6

28. Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29. Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

29a. "AND by following my teachings!"

of course it comes from the soul but you will hear many of the great ones say it was the rudiment of the classical foundation that gave them a greater spring board.

Geewiz you seem to want to contend just to contend!

Yikes you must contradict everyone around you!

“It is the same for spiritual freedom one should be grounded in a firm foundation so when that day comes the words are given to you to draw upon.”

If that is true, why did you choose a foundation that is:

1. Anti-Bible
2. Anti-Christ
3. Anti-Gospel
4. Anti-God

Your post makes no sense, Restornu.

Try again, please.

ampu

“Beware of the BOM poison.”

“You mean this:

“The Articles of Faith

.......................................

no. We mean everything the mormons do not tell you until
it is too late. Like these...

Mormon Missionary Deception Method:

1. Convince you of their sincerity
2. Trick you into expressing faith first in the Book of Mormon by praying and asking for a sign (this takes you off the objective ground of Biblical truth and puts you into subjective ground of feelings)
3. Convince you that the Bible has errors in its translation
4. Trick you into expressing faith in the prophet Joseph Smith
5. Trick you into expressing faith in the Restoration of the “Gospel” (see Galatians Chapter one)
6. Get you all the way into the baptismal font...

..........................................................

7. ONLY THEN... you will learn the true DEVIANT doctrines of
Mormonism. At this point, it is too late! You only have
feelings as a basis of truth! You will believe anything.

..........................................................

Such as the following “truths” taught in mormonism ...

... God used to be a regular Joe, but became God.
... The Jesus of mormonism was a created spirit being who became one of the three mormon earth gods
... Speaking of gods, there are trillions of gods out there!
... Speaking of gods, you can be a God with your own planet!
... It will take work, lots of works to attain the god-level
... Speaking of levels, heaven has three levels.
... Did we mention we believe in a Mother God too?
... SHE is eternally pregnant
... SHE pops out spirit children who will some day get a human body on earth
... SHE and the father god have sex
... All the trillions of gods in the mormon pantheon get together regularly over spring break in Kolob Beach to talk
... Did we mention one of the works you have to do is give 10%?
... Did we mention your bishop will audit you?
... Did we mention you will have to complete Masonic Temple rituals that involve strangers touching your private parts?
... Did we mention you will have magic underwear you must always wear?
... Did we mention we believe in eternally polygamy?
... Did we mention that in eternity, all single females will be assigned to a male god?

... and on and on...

Did we mention that swallowing all this may take swallowing
lots of prescription drugs (Utah has the highest usage of
prescription tranquilizers).

Once in, you have to accept it ALL to move up the chain
towards Godhood.

ampu

Is it mindreading when our rancor tells on us for the spirit of the Lord can not dwell where there is contention so is it really mindreading?

When we are in the state of GRACE than one is not being unkind or mean spirited, spiteful vindictive, set traps for your fellowman to fall into etc