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MORMON CHRISTOLOGY: A CHRIST-TEST FOR CHRISTIAN IDENTITY - OPEN
ONTRUTH.com ^ | 2000 | Cky J. Carrigan

Posted on 07/15/2010 7:46:51 AM PDT by greyfoxx39

MORMON CHRISTOLOGY: A CHRIST-TEST FOR CHRISTIAN IDENTITY     

or

Is The LDS Jesus Christ Exclusively Different from the Biblical Jesus Christ?

This paper will establish the nature of the controversy, set forth an

exegetically derived, succinct christological test for identifying genuine Christianity

and compare Mormon Christology with this test. It will be argued that Mormon Christology

does not pass the Christ-Test and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

should not be identified with Genuine Christianity. And it will be demonstrated that the

LDS Jesus Christ is exclusively different from the Biblical Jesus Christ.

***

THE NATURE OF THE CONTROVERSY

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are generally outraged about the evangelical assertion that Mormons are not Christians, or that the Mormon Church is not a Christian church. Consider the following remarks uttered by President Boyd K. Packer, in his role as acting president of the Quorom of the Twelve.2 Packer directed his comments to contra-Mormon apologists as he addressed a large gathering of Brigham Young University students and faculty five months before the 1998 annual June meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention in Salt Lake City.3

My message is for those who teach and write and produce films which claim that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not a Christian church and that we, the members, are not Christians. . . . Such individuals are uninformed and unfair . . . I bear witness of the Lord Jesus Christ. He lives. He is our Redeemer and is our Savior. He resides over this church. He is no stranger to his servants here and as we move into the future with quiet confidence, his spirit will be with us.4

Frankly, I can empathize with President Packer and the Mormon people for their oft' expressed outrage. I too would be more than a little livid if anyone asserted that I was not a Christian or that my Church was not a Christian Church. For this reason, when engaging a Mormon person for the purpose of leading them to genuine repentance and faith in the genuine Jesus, I distinguish between the two religions in the following way. I use the terms "LDS Christianity" or "Mormon Christianity" in contrast to "Biblical Christianity," "Traditional Christianity," "Historical Christianity" or sometimes even "Genuine Christianity."5

On the other hand, informed evangelicals are generally concerned about the Mormon assertion that Mormons are Christians, or that the Mormon Church is a Christian church, an for good reason. Consider the following remarks made by Republican Presidential Candidate, the Honorable Orrin Hatch, at a recent meeting of the Christian Coalition in Washington, D.C. Hatch was only politely received at the largely conservative evangelical event when introduced. Referring to a poll that indicated that 17% of Americans would never elect an LDS member to the presidency, Hatch remarked, "Well, I can't do anything about bigots or bigotry, but I can do a lot about people who are misinformed. . . . I take my Christian faith very, very seriously." 6 Then Bishop Hatch bore his testimony saying,

I know that Jesus is the Christ. I know that he lives. I know that he died for you and me. I know that he has provided a means by which we may go back to our Father in Heaven to live in peace and prosperity . . . It is from this land that true freedom has gone all the way around the world . . . God bless America, and God bless all of you.7

There are at least two features of Hatch's speech that demand a non-conciliatory apologetic response. Hatch enjoyed a rousing standing ovation from the Christian Coalition after his testimony of Christian identity in light of the cool reception he got at the time of his introduction. And the Deseret News gloated openly when it issued the headline, "Hatch wins over skeptical Christian group--Standing ovation after he stands up for his religion."8

Now, consider also the concluding comments from Stephen E. Robinson's book, "Are Mormons Christians?" Robinson poses the criteria for Christian identity as simply knowing, loving, or worshipping Jesus Christ. He writes,

Though all the world may say that Latter-day Saints do not know or love or worship Jesus Christ, I know that we do, and if this is not the issue in question, or if this is not enough to be counted a Christian, then the word has lost its meaning.9

LDS apologists Daniel Peterson and Stephen Ricks also weigh in. "By every New Testament standard, Mormons are Christian," they write.10 They also assert, "What made a person a Christian in the first century, and what makes a person a Christian today, is, simply a commitment to Jesus Christ. Such commitment is central to the religion of the Latter-day Saints." 11 This Peterson-Ricks definition, commitment to Jesus Christ, is indeed a suitable working test for Christian identity. What remains unsettled is a suitable biblical description of commitment and of Jesus Christ. A description of the latter term is the subject of this paper.

The representative LDS comments above which claim LDS Christian identity demand an apologetic response that compliments the evangelistic approach suggested above. The price is simply too high to ignore or patronize the unsubstantiated and false claims of LDS Christian identity which are made in the public arena. To do so necessarily gives ground to pluralism since Historic Christianity and LDS Christianity make mutually exclusive truth claims about the object of religious commitment, Jesus Christ, and mutually exclusive truth claims about the nature and practice of that commitment to Him. If pluralism prevails Christianity itself is stripped of its distinctive truth, distinctive way of salvation and distinctive eternal life. And if pluralism is true, then Christianity of any description is irrelevant.

THE CHRIST-TEST

The Bible strongly suggests that a christological test is a legitimate way of discerning Christian identity or redemptive status. In other words, one's redemptive status before God in this life and the next may be directly related to what one believes about the person and work of Jesus Christ. For instance, Scripture clearly asserts that one must not reject the Sonship, incarnation, death, burial and resurrection of Christ to enjoy the blessings of salvation.12 Consider especially 2 John 7-9,

For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son (NKJV).

Matthew 16:13-20 also makes a very strong claim that identifying Jesus correctly is a proposition that constitutes the Rock upon which the very Church is built,

When Jesus came into the region of Ceasarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." He said to them, "But whom do you say that I am?" Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock [of confession] I will build My church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it (NKJV) [italics mine].

Now if a Christ-Test in general is legitimate for discerning Christian identity or redemptive status, and I believe it is, then what remains are the particular test questions for the LDS context. A particular test for LDS Christology is required because Mormons happily confess the Sonship of Christ together with His incarnation, death, burial and resurrection. What they do not happily confess, I will demonstrate, is the biblical meaning of some of these terms. Now, I should like to set forth my biblical Christ-Test primarily derived from a thorough theological-exegetical analysis of the Christology of Colossians 1:15-20 stated in consideration of LDS Christology.13

There is an abundance of evidence in this Colossians christological passage to assert confidently at least six essential aspects of the person and work of Christ:

1) Jesus Christ is uniquely fully divine, yet a distinct person.

2) Jesus Christ is uniquely fully human, yet without sin.

3) The fundamentally distinct human and divine natures of Jesus Christ are uniquely unified in one person without confusion, change, division, separation or identity.

4) Jesus Christ is the unique perfect revealer of God's essential nature.

5) Jesus Christ is the absolute LORD-Creator of all creation ex nihilo.

6) Jesus Christ is the unique and efficient reconciler of creation.

1) Unique Full Divinity

The two strongest witnesses in this passage for the unique full deity of Christ may be found in the image of the invisible God phrase of 15a together with the firstborn phrase of 15b. These two phrases paint a glorious picture of Christ that depicts Him as the unique, eternal, visible, representation and manifestation of God who is otherwise unobservable. Christ is exactly equal to God and exactly like God, so exactly equal to and like God that He does what only God can do. He creates ex nihilo. Additionally, Christ is so exactly equal to and like God that He BE-s what only God can BE. He necessarily BE-s. To be exactly like God is to BE necessarily. And to BE necessarily is to BE eternally. And Christ is so exactly related to God that He is called only what God may be called, the Image of the invisible God and the Firstborn over all creation.

2) Unique Full Humanity

The two strongest evidences in this passage for the unique full humanity of Christ also lie in the words image of the invisible God of 15a and in the phrase firstborn of 18c. These expressions describe Christ as the full revelation of true humanity, as Man par excellence, as the Ideal-Human who is created in the image of God, able not to die on the one hand, but certain to die because of Adam's sin on the other. As the Firstborn from the dead, Christ is fully human on the basis of His dying and fully human, as well, on the basis of His bodily resurrection.

3) Unique Unification of Two Fundamentally Distinct Natures in One Person

This christological proposition is not derived from one biblical proposition, but is, however, a necessary derivation of the assertion of the two above propositions: Christ's unique full deity and unique full humanity. Full divinity and full humanity are two fundamentally distinct kinds of beingness. Only Jesus Christ is fully both. The exact relationship between these two fundamentally distinct natures in one person is a profound mystery, but cogent thinking and biblical thinking demand an isolation of certain incorrect descriptions of this relationship. Ancient incorrect descriptions include Apollonarianism, Nestorianism and Eutychianism.

4) Unique Perfect Revealer of God's Essential Nature

The image phrase together with firstborn in v. 15 harbor the strongest proof for the revealing work of Christ in this passage. As an exact visible representation of what God who can not otherwise be observed is like, Jesus Christ is the ultimate revealer of who God is and what God does. What makes Christ the perfect revealer is that He shares attributes with both God and Man-in-the-image-of-God. He is, in one person, both Creator ex nihilo and Inhabitant of His creation. He occupies two realms: the realm of God and the realm of man. And Christ reveals God to man, in his created realm, what Creator-God of another fundamentally different realm is like.

5) Absolute LORD-Creator of All Creation Ex Nihilo

Firstborn in v. 15, especially amplified by before all things in v. 17, offers the strongest testimony of the work of Christ as Lord of creation ex nihilo in this passage. These phrases depict Christ as supreme over the creation that He creates ex nihilo. And it follows necessarily that whatever He creates, He is prior to in time. Christ is the uncreated and unprocreated Creator ex nihilo over His creation. But His special creation, man, fell prey to temptation. Man's sin brought a curse on all creation and creation stood in desperate need of re-creating or reconciliation.

6) Unique and Efficient Reconciler of His Creation

The strongest evidences in this passage for the redeeming work of Christ as efficient reconciler of creation, or in other words efficient LORD-Re-Creator, are found in the phrases reconciles all things (v. 20a) and the Firstborn from the dead phrase of 18c. Jesus Christ is the peacemaking mediator between God and fallen man, and between God and fallen creation because He is both God and man, Creator and Inhabitant of creation. Christ makes this peace with God on behalf of all creation by His substitutionary death on the cross. He makes recreation-reconciliation possible through His shed blood on the cross, and He models re-creation through His resurrection.

MORMON CHRISTOLOGY & THE CHRIST-TEST14

1) On Unique Full Deity

The LDS christological program suggests the derived, or progressive deity of Jesus Christ rather than the full deity as described by the Christ-Test above. The fully divine status of the Son of God is the subsequent result of His procreation and resurrection, therefore His deity can not be an eternal state or an exactly-equal-with-supreme-God state. An official LDS manual reads, "Jesus Christ is literally the son [sic] of God the Eternal Father."15 In a guide for LDS family home evenings, the writer remarks, "How are children begotten? I answer just as Jesus Christ was begotten of his father."16 Heber Grant wrote Jesus is the "Son of God just as much as you and I are the sons of our fathers."17 And Ezra Benson wrote, the Son of God was "sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of the Eternal Father."18 LDS Christology suggests that there was a time when the Son of God was not was not the son of God, by suggesting there was a time when the Son of God was not begotten.19

Additionally, Jesus Christ did not even achieve what Mormons term "the fullness of deity," until after his resurrection. Consider Joseph Fielding Smith's comments, "The Savior did not have a fulness [sic] at first, but after he received his body and the resurrection all power was given to him both in heaven and in earth. . . . There were some things lacking which he did not receive until after his resurrection."20 The LDS Jesus Christ is a radically different Jesus Christ with reference to His unique full deity on the grounds that the LDS Jesus Christ does not enjoy exact likeness or eternal likeness with God.

2) Unique Full Humanity

Whatever distinctions there may be on this point are subtle, highly complex, and related to the findings of the first and third test and therefore warrant no special treatment in this brief analysis.

3) Unique Unification of Two Fundamentally Distinct Natures

Mormon Christology, its Doctrine of God and its Anthropology, effectively annihilates the fundamental distinction between humanity and deity. In other words, LDS Christology basically disagrees with the premises upon which the traditional doctrine of the hypostatic union is based, that is, deity and humanity are different states of being. Robinson wrote,

The soil from which the LDS doctrine of deification grows is the belief that humans are of the divine species and that the scriptural language of divine paternity is not merely figurative. . . . The strict wall of separation between the human and the divine . . . in my view is not really biblical but, once again, philosophical. . . . It rests on the same objection to the clear sense of Scripture that led to the equally unbiblical doctrine of the two natures in Christ, which was added to historic Christianity by the Council of Chalcedon in A.D. 451. . . . According to Chalcedon, Christ's divine nature never became human, never suffered, never died--the claims of Scripture notwithstanding. Latter-day Saints reject all that.21

Therefore, the LDS Jesus Christ is a radically different Jesus Christ compared with the Traditional Jesus Christ described as possessing both fundamentally distinct human and divine natures uniquely unified in one person without confusion, change, division or separation. Perhaps a new phrase "without identity" should be added to traditional christological formulations to exclude clearly the erroneous LDS view that annihilates this essential distinction.

4) Unique Perfect Revealer of God's Essential Nature

Jesus Christ is not, in the LDS program, the perfect revealer of God because of the differences that exist at the ontological level between the Eternal Father and the Son. The Son is, for instance, not eternal nor presumably capable of creating mankind (see below) and can not reveal in his own person eternality or anthropological creation. In Traditional Christology, the Son of God is ontologically the same as the Father, and therefore reveals exactly what God 's essential nature which can not be perceived otherwise is like. Mormons are, however, "thoroughly subordinationist in their theology of the Godhead."22 They "believe that the oneness of these three [persons of the trinity] is not ontological oneness of being . . . but a oneness of mind, purpose, power, and intent."23 In this way, the LDS Jesus Christ is incapable by definition of revealing exactly what the Father is like, because the Son is essentially different in person and essential being-ness.

5) Absolute LORD-Creator of All Creation Ex Nihilo

Mormons affirm several distinct doctrines on Christ's role in creation as well. The Son of God is not the absolute Lord-Creator of all creation ex nihilo in LDS Christology. The earth and everything in it were spiritually "created" (spiritual matter reorganized) by the Father before the physical "creation" (physical matter reorganized) by the Son and others. Bruce R. McConkie wrote, "This earth was created first spiritually. . . . Then came the physical creation. . . . Man and all forms of life existed as spirit beings and entities before the foundations of this earth were laid."24 Joseph Smith revealed, "In the beginning [of the physical creation], the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it. . . . Now the word create came from the word baurau which does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize. . . . The pure principles of element . . . had no beginning, and can have no end."25 Joseph Fielding Smith wrote, "It was Jesus Christ, our Redeemer, who, under the direction of his Father, came down and organized matter and made this planet. . . . It is true that Adam helped to form this earth. . . . I have a strong view or conviction that there were others also who assisted them. Perhaps Noah and Enoch; and why not Joseph Smith?"26

Perhaps the most distinct of all LDS Christ-the-Creator doctrines is that the Son of God did not "create" mankind in any sense of the word. Bruce R. McConkie wrote, "We know that Jehovah-Christ, assisted by 'many of the noble and great ones' (Abr. 3:22) of whom Michael is but the illustration, did in fact create the earth and all forms of plant and animal life on the face thereof. But when it came to placing man on earth, there was a change of Creators. That is, the Father became personally involved. . . . Man was created by the Father."27 It is very clear that the LDS Jesus Christ is a radically different Jesus Christ compared with the traditional Jesus Christ on His role in creation and the basic definition of the nature of the creative act itself. The Colossians passage leaves absolutely no room for the LDS interpretation that rejects Christ's role in the creation of mankind.

6) Unique and Efficient Reconciler of His Creation

The Mormon Jesus Christ is very different on this test as well. For starters, the LDS doctrine of atonement tends to minimize the central work of Christ on the cross itself. Consider an official LDS missionary training manual that reads "The atonement made by the Savior began in Gethsemane and ended at the empty tomb."28 The careful reader will also note the strange absence of the very word "cross" in Mormon documents in general. In five entire pages of propositions and official quotations on the subject of the atonement of Christ in Doctrines of the Gospel, there is not one occurrence of the word "cross." More important, however, than the notable absence of references to the cross itself is the limited nature of the atonement itself. Jesus' atonement only effects universal immortality, it does not effect the fullness of salvation. The Articles of Faith collected in the Pearl of Great Price states, "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression."29 And Gospel Principles states, "When he became our Savior, he did his part to help us return to our heavenly home. It is now up to each of us to do our part and become worthy of exaltation."30 In other words, the work of Christ on the cross is not reconciling at all, it does not make total peace between God and man, it only makes partial peace and restores immortality to all mankind. Whether one enjoys the full benefits of salvation, called exaltation or deification, depends on the conduct of man himself. This is definitely not the traditional doctrine of the atoning work of Christ. Therefore, the LDS Christ is very different on this point as well from Traditional Christology.

In sum, the LDS Jesus Christ is not uniquely fully divine. He is not a bearer of the fundamentally distinct human and divine natures uniquely unified in one person without confusion, change, division, separation or identity. He is not the unique perfect revealer of God's essential nature. He is not the absolute LORD-Creator of all creation ex nihilo. And He is not the unique, efficient reconciler of creation. In short, the LDS concept of Jesus Christ is not the Traditional concept of  Jesus Christ described by Colossians.

A critic might successfully demonstrate that I have misinterpreted LDS Christology or biblical Christology at some point. But, there is little chance that a critic could convince any informed observer that LDS descriptions of the person and work of Christ are the same or even similar to traditional descriptions. Even the present prophet of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints admits as much to Mormons. According to an LDS publication, President Gordon B. Hinckley bore his testimony describing Christ in Geneva, Switzerland at an LDS gathering of five stakes in France and Switzerland on 6 June 1998. The article reads,

In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints "do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness [sic] of Times. He, together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph Smith left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.

Am I a Christian? Of course I am. I believe in Christ. I talk of Christ. I pray through Christ? I'm trying to follow Him and live His gospel in my life."31

Paige Patterson, president of the Southern Baptist Convention, penned a letter to President Hinckley in September of 1998 in response to his Genevan christological remarks commending Hinckley for his refreshingly candid remarks in light of many other church leaders and missionaries who generally tend to minimize the christological distinctions. Patterson wrote,

In my opinion, that [Hinckley's remarks] enhances both your credibility and the reality that traditional Christians and Mormons believe in two different and distinctive views of Christ. . . . Baptists, as you know, hold to a view of Jesus Christ that is based strictly on biblical revelation and that believes that Jesus was and is eternal God. This view is clearly at odds with your own faith that, as I understand it, confesses that he was sired by God, the heavenly father, in consort with his wife. He was in that sense a literal son of God. I also realize that you believe that Jesus existed as an eternal spirit form, but not in the sense as God or as the Son of God.32

The director of media relations for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, however, later reinterpreted President Hinckley's Genevan remarks in a way that sought apparently to minimize the Christological differences between evangelicals and Latter-day Saints when asked to comment on the prophets straightforward declaration. Apparently, the message to Mormons is "We believe in a very differently described, better, Jesus than other Christians," while the message to the public is "We believe in the same Jesus described by other Christians." One can only speculate about the reason for the mutually exclusive messages, but perhaps the different messages are related to the LDS general desire to join the ranks of mainline Christianity and be publicly perceived as so for proselytizing purposes, while remaining distinctive in comments to its distinctive membership.

CONCLUSION

If a christological test for Christian identity is a legitimate test, if my particular christological test is a valid one, if my description of LDS Christology is on the mark, and if President Hinckley is correct when he observes that the Traditional Christ is not the LDS Christ, then it necessarily follows that Mormonism may not rightly claim Christian identity. At a bare minimum, it necessarily follows that Biblical Christology and LDS Christology are mutually exclusive truth claims that can not both rightly claim Christian identity. When either Evangelicals or Mormons minimize these differences, it only trivializes the deeply held beliefs of both. Perhaps Evangelicals and Mormons will have to agree to disagree vigorously about Christology, but that would be a good start toward advancing the TRUTH about Jesus the Christ, the Son of the Living God, whatever it may be.

(END NOTES  AT LINK)

 



TOPICS: General Discusssion; Other non-Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: christian; inman; lds; mormon
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To: Normandy; aMorePerfectUnion

Norman - a simple straight up question

Will a non-temple mormon attain the highest heaven and become a god. Based upon you interpretation you gave to AMPU why or why not?


161 posted on 07/18/2010 5:01:02 AM PDT by Godzilla ( 3-7-77)
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To: Godzilla

Hi Godzilla,

In my opinion the answer to your question is yes — if you mean people who don’t receive temple ordinances in this life.

There are many Latter-day saints who for one reason or another die before receiving temple ordinances.

Also many who have lived and died without being Mormons will receive the highest possible blessings.

“All who have died without a knowledge of this Gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom, for I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts” Doctrine and Covenants 137.


162 posted on 07/18/2010 5:20:50 AM PDT by Normandy
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To: Tennessee Nana
This thread is getting too kinky for this old grandmother...

It CAN'T be because of MY, ahem, questionable replies. They don't STAY here long enough to affect a slow responder like yerself who can't hit a 666 target with a rifle but must use a shotgun!

163 posted on 07/18/2010 5:41:59 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: restornu
Does this prove you have no conscience or you have trouble elelvating your thoughts!

It PROVES that SOME Mormons, who used to be a PRESBYTERIANs, have NO insight at all about their old religion!

164 posted on 07/18/2010 5:43:48 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: restornu
Well it was only a few decades ago before that policy was changed there was a lot hoopla over a baby had to be baptized for it the baby died he could not be saved...

Why did you MORMONs change your policy?

165 posted on 07/18/2010 5:44:42 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: restornu
In all fairness that was never really a doctrine of the Lord Jesus Christ nor can it be found in the scriptures but neither can the Trinty.

Just like the stolen, SECRET (hahaha) Temple Rituals® that MORMONs waste SO much time doing!

166 posted on 07/18/2010 5:46:32 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: restornu
 
BTW You are taking this out of context AMPU these folks are still under the Law of Moese.
 

John 6

28. Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29. Jesus answered,
"The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Galatians 3

1. You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
2. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?

 
You foolish MORMONs!

167 posted on 07/18/2010 5:48:15 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: restornu

You may want to call your ping list by PHONE and urge them to come to this thread...


168 posted on 07/18/2010 5:49:18 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: restornu; Utah Binger
Utah Binger you have now come to Christ?

He's closer to Him than, ahem, some former PRESBYTERIANs are!

169 posted on 07/18/2010 5:50:26 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Godzilla
Interesting, here the Greek interpolation for Yeshua Hamashiach centuries before its time had come. What a joke.

I can do better than THAT!!!


 
 

 
THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
 
SECTION 76
 
A vision given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Sidney Rigdon, at Hiram, Ohio, February 16, 1832. HC 1: 245–252. Prefacing his record of this vision the Prophet wrote: “Upon my return from Amherst conference, I resumed the translation of the Scriptures. From sundry revelations which had been received, it was apparent that many important points touching the salvation of man had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled. It appeared self-evident from what truths were left, that if God rewarded every one according to the deeds done in the body, the term ‘Heaven,’ as intended for the Saints’ eternal home, must include more kingdoms than one. Accordingly, while translating St. John’s Gospel, myself and Elder Rigdon saw the following vision.” It was after the Prophet had translated John 5: 29 that this vision was given.
 
1–4, The Lord is God; 5–10, Mysteries of the kingdom will be revealed to all the faithful; 11–17, All shall come forth in the resurrection of the just or the unjust; 18–24, Inhabitants of many worlds are begotten sons and daughters unto God through the atonement of Jesus Christ; 25–29, An angel of God fell and became the devil; 30–49, Sons of perdition suffer eternal damnation; all others gain some degree of salvation; 50–70, The glory and reward of exalted beings in the celestial kingdom; 71–80, Those who shall inherit the terrestrial kingdom; 81–113, Status of those in the telestial, terrestrial, and celestial glories; 114–119, All the faithful may see the vision of the degrees of glory.
 
  1 aHear, O ye heavens, and give ear, O earth, and rejoice ye inhabitants thereof, for the Lord is bGod, and beside him there is cno dSavior.
  2 aGreat is his wisdom, bmarvelous are his ways, and the extent of his doings none can find out.
  3 His apurposes fail not, neither are there any who can stay his hand.
  4 From eternity to eternity he is the asame, and his years never bfail.
  5 For thus saith the Lord—I, the Lord, am amerciful and gracious unto those who bfear me, and delight to honor those who cserve me in righteousness and in truth unto the end.
  6 Great shall be their reward and eternal shall be their aglory.
  7 And to them will I areveal all bmysteries, yea, all the hidden mysteries of my kingdom from days of old, and for ages to come, will I make known unto them the good pleasure of my will concerning all things pertaining to my kingdom.
  8 Yea, even the wonders of aeternity shall they know, and things to come will I show them, even the things of many generations.
  9 And their awisdom shall be great, and their bunderstanding reach to heaven; and before them the wisdom of the wise shall cperish, and the understanding of the dprudent shall come to naught.
  10 For by my aSpirit will I benlighten them, and by my cpower will I make known unto them the dsecrets of my ewill—yea, even those things which feye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor yet entered into the heart of man.
  11 We, Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon, being ain the Spirit on the sixteenth day of February, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and thirty-two—
  12 By the power of the aSpirit our beyes were opened and our understandings were enlightened, so as to see and understand the things of God—
  13 Even those things which were from the beginning before the world was, which were ordained of the Father, through his Only Begotten Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, even from the abeginning;
  14 Of whom we bear record; and the record which we bear is the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, who is the Son, whom we saw and with whom we aconversed in the heavenly bvision.
  15 For while we were doing the work of atranslation, which the Lord had appointed unto us, we came to the twenty-ninth verse of the fifth chapter of John, which was given unto us as follows—
  16 Speaking of the resurrection of the dead, concerning those who shall ahear the voice of the bSon of Man:
  17 And shall come forth; athey who have done bgood, in the cresurrection of the djust; and they who have done evil, in the resurrection of the unjust.
  18 Now this caused us to marvel, for it was given unto us of the Spirit.
  19 And while we ameditated upon these things, the Lord touched the eyes of our understandings and they were opened, and the bglory of the Lord shone round about.
  20 And we beheld the aglory of the Son, on the bright hand of the cFather, and received of his fulness;
  21 And saw the holy aangels, and them who are bsanctified before his throne, worshiping God, and the Lamb, who cworship him forever and ever.
  22 And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the atestimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he blives!
  23 For we asaw him, even on the bright hand of cGod; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only dBegotten of the Father—
  24 That by ahim, and through him, and of him, the bworlds are and were created, and the cinhabitants thereof are begotten dsons and daughters unto God.
  25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an aangel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who brebelled against the Only Begotten cSon whom the Father dloved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,
  26 And was called aPerdition, for the heavens bwept over him—he was cLucifer, a son of the morning.
  27 And we beheld, and lo, he is afallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!
  28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old aserpent, even the bdevil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our cGod and his Christ—
  29 Wherefore, he maketh awar with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about.
  30 And we saw a vision of the asufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us:
  31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and asuffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—
  32 They are they who are the asons of bperdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;
  33 For they are avessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;
  34 Concerning whom I have said there is ano bforgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
  35 Having adenied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having bcrucified him unto themselves and put him to an open cshame.
  36 These are they who shall go away into the alake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
  37 And the aonly ones on whom the bsecond cdeath shall have any power;
  38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall anot be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.
  39 For all the rest shall be abrought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the btriumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father cbefore the worlds were made.
  40 And this is the agospel, the glad btidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—
  41 That he acame into the world, even Jesus, to be bcrucified for the world, and to cbear the sins of the dworld, and to esanctify the world, and to fcleanse it from all unrighteousness;
  42 That through him all might be asaved whom the Father had put into his bpower and made by him;
  43 Who aglorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of bperdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.
  44 Wherefore, he saves all aexcept them—they shall go away into beverlasting cpunishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to dreign with the edevil and his angels in eternity, where their fworm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—
  45 And the aend thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;
  46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;
  47 Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by avision unto many, but straightway shut it up again;
  48 Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the adepth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are bordained unto this ccondemnation.
  49 And we heard the voice, saying: aWrite the vision, for lo, this is the end of the vision of the sufferings of the ungodly.
  50 And again we bear record—for we asaw and heard, and this is the btestimony of the cgospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the djust
  51 They are they who received the atestimony of Jesus, and bbelieved on his name and were cbaptized after the dmanner of his burial, being eburied in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—
  52 That by akeeping the commandments they might be bwashed and ccleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the dhands of him who is eordained and sealed unto this power;
  53 And who aovercome by faith, and are bsealed by the Holy Spirit of cpromise, which the Father dsheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
  54 They are they who are the achurch of the bFirstborn.
  55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given aall things—
  56 They are they who are apriests and bkings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;
  57 And are apriests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of bEnoch, which was after the corder of the Only Begotten Son.
  58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are agods, even the bsons of cGod
  59 Wherefore, aall things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
  60 And they shall aovercome all things.
  61 Wherefore, let no man aglory in man, but rather let him bglory in God, who shall csubdue all enemies under his feet.
  62 These shall adwell in the bpresence of God and his Christ forever and ever.
  63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall acome in the bclouds of heaven to creign on the earth over his people.
  64 These are they who shall have part in the afirst resurrection.
  65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the ajust.
  66 These are they who are come unto aMount bZion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.
  67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of aangels, to the general assembly and church of bEnoch, and of the cFirstborn.
  68 These are they whose names are awritten in heaven, where God and Christ are the bjudge of all.
  69 These are they who are ajust men made bperfect through Jesus the mediator of the new ccovenant, who wrought out this perfect datonement through the shedding of his own eblood.
  70 These are they whose bodies are acelestial, whose bglory is that of the csun, even the glory of God, the dhighest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical.
  71 And again, we saw the aterrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the bFirstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the cmoon differs from the sun in the firmament.
  72 Behold, these are they who died awithout blaw;
  73 And also they who are the aspirits of men kept in bprison, whom the Son visited, and cpreached the dgospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;
  74 Who areceived not the btestimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.
  75 These are they who are ahonorable men of the earth, who were bblinded by the craftiness of men.
  76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.
  77 These are they who receive of the apresence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.
  78 Wherefore, they are abodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.
  79 These are they who are not avaliant in the btestimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.
  80 And now this is the end of the avision which we saw of the terrestrial, that the Lord commanded us to bwrite while we were yet in the Spirit.
  81 And again, we asaw the glory of the btelestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the cglory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.
  82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the atestimony of Jesus.
  83 These are they who adeny not the Holy Spirit.
  84 These are they who are thrust down to ahell.
  85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the adevil until the blast resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the cLamb, shall have finished his work.
  86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;
  87 And the terrestrial through the aministration of the celestial.
  88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be aministering spirits for them; for they shall be bheirs of salvation.
  89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the atelestial, which surpasses all understanding;
  90 And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it.
  91 And thus we saw the glory of the aterrestrial which excels in all things the glory of the telestial, even in glory, and in power, and in might, and in dominion.
  92 And thus we saw the aglory of the celestial, which bexcels in all things—where God, even the Father, reigns upon his cthrone forever and ever;
  93 Before whose throne all things bow in humble areverence, and give him glory forever and ever.
  94 They who dwell in his apresence are the church of the bFirstborn; and they see as they are seen, and cknow as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his dgrace;
  95 And he makes them aequal in power, and in might, and in dominion.
  96 And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the asun is one.
  97 And the glory of the terrestrial is one, even as the glory of the moon is one.
  98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;
  99 For these are they who are of aPaul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.
  100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of aEsaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;
  101 But areceived not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the beverlasting covenant.
  102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be agathered with the saints, to be bcaught up unto the cchurch of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.
  103 These are athey who are bliars, and csorcerers, and dadulterers, and ewhoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.
  104 These are they who suffer the awrath of God on earth.
  105 These are they who suffer the avengeance of eternal fire.
  106 These are they who are cast down to ahell and bsuffer the wrath of cAlmighty God, until the dfulness of times, when Christ shall have esubdued all enemies under his ffeet, and shall have gperfected his work;
  107 When he shall adeliver up the bkingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have covercome and have dtrodden the ewine-press falone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.
  108 Then shall he be acrowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the bthrone of his power to reign forever and ever.
  109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as ainnumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;
  110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall aconfess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;
  111 For they shall be judged according to their aworks, and every man shall receive according to his own bworks, his own cdominion, in the dmansions which are prepared;
  112 And they shall be aservants of the Most High; but bwhere God and Christ cdwell they dcannot come, eworlds without end.
  113 This is the end of the vision which we saw, which we were commanded to write while we were yet in the Spirit.
  114 But agreat and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the bmysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion;
  115 Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not alawful for man to utter;
  116 Neither is man acapable to make them known, for they are only to be bseen and cunderstood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who dlove him, and purify themselves before him;
  117 To whom he grants this privilege of aseeing and knowing for themselves;
  118 That through the power and manifestation of the Spirit, while in the flesh, they may be able to abear his bpresence in the world of glory.
  119 And to God and the Lamb be aglory, and honor, and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

 
 
 
Just WHEN was the BIBLE separted into CHAPTER AND VERSE??

170 posted on 07/18/2010 6:08:34 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

You copy and paste & copy and paste but you sitll don’t have the spirit of the Lord to discern them which is something like the 10 virgins and oil in their lamps...

5 virgins were able to maintain spiritual oil in their lamps and 5 were running low and this kind of oil one can not share for it comes from the Lord and if one did not receive enough oil because of their deportment they will not be able to go to the wedding

Many here have a tendency to be judgmental and abusive which is contrary to the heart of a Chirstian.

John 5: 39
39 ¶ Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Acts 17: 11
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

But again if one does not have the spirit of discernment it is all done in vain!

The condition of the mind and heart determins if there is a presents of the Holy Ghost!


171 posted on 07/18/2010 6:35:23 AM PDT by restornu
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To: Normandy

“it is clear that LDS believe that something is required of them to receive the highest reward that God has to offer.”

Then it is not a gift, you have worked for your reward.

“I don’t believe that just believing in Jesus in my mind or confessing with my lips is enough. I have to make a sincere effort to follow Christ.”

No one I know argues that “just believing” or “confessing” is the same as saving faith. Mormons however, go beyond faith into works and guarantee they cannot be saved unless they leave the works based system.

I would add gently that it has nothing to do with what you believe. It has everything to do with what HE has said and done.

“This takes love, sacrifice, repentance, selflessness, charity, longsuffering etc — the things that Jesus taught and exemplified.”

No one complains [much] that mormons done live a “good life”. In fact, the basis of salvation is not your works, Norman, but HIS WORK. You neither add to it nor earn it.

“We have to make an effort, and of course we will fall short, but we have to repent of our sins, and keep on trying to overcome.”

Of course you do, you have a mormonic false gospel that substitutes itself for the real Gospel of Grace.

Bottom line: mormons believe they must work to get into heaven and that Christ’s gift is insufficient. They must prove themselves worthy to recieve a gift!

There are really only a few ways to falsify God’s message. Satan recycles them like a fashion show:

Distort the nature of God - mormons do this in spades! God the Father used to be a man - Adam - and sinned. Jesus was a created spirit being. The Holy Spirit was naughty (sinned) and is now on probation with no body. Every one of those is idolatry.

Distort the Gospel of Grace - The Apostle Paul warned all Christians about messages like yours, Norman. Mormonism has turned the Gospel of Grace into a false gospel of human works.

Distort the Bible - again, mormonism really excels at this! Cast doubt on what God has said.

This is the same exact plan Satan has used since the Garden of Eden and now he has every mormon to spread his message.

Only Him. Only grace. Only one God.

ampu


172 posted on 07/18/2010 6:39:54 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

I would add gently that it has nothing to do with what you believe. It has everything to do with what HE has said and done.


Well certainly Jesus has done everything to make Salvation possible for all mankind.

However I believe for Christ’s sacrifice to have any benefit to me, I must respond to it through faith in Him and by following His teachings.


173 posted on 07/18/2010 7:02:50 AM PDT by Normandy
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To: restornu; Elsie

My heart is glad for you I fine your spirit sharing and loving.

_______________________________________________________

My heart got four new pipes and a complete re plumbing in January 09. I’m a new man.

That greater being needed me to do more work here. Today I’ll be working on the art fence on the north end of the meadow and later we need to fix the front gate. Our hired hand just arrived at 7:00

The coffee tasted especially good today during our special sunrise service that we conduct daily here to enjoy the beauty of the mountains.

“How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace”

I soloed that song in the Ogden Tabernacle for Stake Conference back in 1966. If you come here I promise to sing for you. We have a baby grand in the main gallery here. Music is the mainstay of life and spirit.

Dogma and scripture quoting bores me. Sanctimonious men and earthly religious devices also bore me. Free yourself and soar away from the controllers of thought. Be an individual, be free. The guilt trip will kill you if you don’t.


174 posted on 07/18/2010 7:22:21 AM PDT by Utah Binger (Mount Carmel Utah, where Mr. Milquetoast lives with his "Persecution Complex")
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175


175 posted on 07/18/2010 7:37:33 AM PDT by svcw (True freedom cannot be granted by any man or government, only by Christ.)
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To: Normandy

good a follow up question

you said if the temple ordinances were not received in ‘this life’

Are you saying that they still need to be performed via proxy or by some other means in the afterlife.


176 posted on 07/18/2010 8:20:03 AM PDT by Godzilla ( 3-7-77)
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To: Elsie
"Just WHEN was the BIBLE separated into CHAPTER AND VERSE??"

Inquiring minds would like to know.

That's an excellent question that deserved a little shouting.

177 posted on 07/18/2010 8:36:10 AM PDT by SZonian (We began as a REPUBLIC, a nation of laws. We became a DEMOCRACY, majority rules. Next step is?)
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To: Utah Binger

Dogma and scripture quoting bores me. Sanctimonious men and earthly religious devices also bore me. Free yourself and soar away from the controllers of thought. Be an individual, be free. The guilt trip will kill you if you don’t.

***

When I was baptized my sins were washed the away and when I received sacrament often is to continuely wash of the dirt of the world.

As an example it is a well known fact in order to be a good jazz musician one must study the classical foundation so one is able to draw upon that which they have aquired in their studies.

It is the same for spiritual freedom one should be grounded in a firm foundation so when that day comes the words are given to you to draw upon.


178 posted on 07/18/2010 8:45:21 AM PDT by restornu
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To: restornu
Speaking of Jazz

Last Thanksgiving she was invited to Monday Night at Birdland. We went with her. They have invited me to come again next year and back her up with vocal sounds of the bass vile a la Lambert, Hendricks and Ross I hope I can make it.

179 posted on 07/18/2010 9:12:06 AM PDT by Utah Binger (Mount Carmel Utah, where Mr. Milquetoast lives with his "Persecution Complex")
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To: restornu; aMorePerfectUnion
It is very clear now you do not want discussiion or facts just to spread your anti LDS propaganda!

52,000 mormon missionaries plus online missionaries going out every day to spread heretical mormon propaganda. Do you believe that's perfectly acceptable in comparison?

Antis are not interested in facts they just want to poison the water for every one else...

The Inmans produce facts from the Bible while the mormons produce fiction from the BOM. One who drinks the poison of the BOM puts his/her soul in danger when he/she finds that Joseph Smith is NOT waiting at the gate to give him/her entrance, but instead only the Keeper of the Book of Life who will say, "Your name is not therein inscribed." Beware of the BOM poison.

No one should ever fear the truth nor the Witness by the Power of the Holy Ghost!

Christians have no need to fear the Bible truth nor the power of the Holy Spirit, for the Triune God IS the power.

The most rewarding day in anyones life when that happens!

When WHAT happens? When a demonic spirit tells demonic tales and innocents believe it is from God? Beware the "reward" from the Luciferian spirit, for it takes on many guises.

180 posted on 07/18/2010 10:00:32 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (If voters follow the democrat method of 2004 Obama will be named the worst president in history.)
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