How Heavy Were Those Gold Plates? [Mormon

Paramount in the story of the Latter-day Saints is the account given by Joseph Smith of a visitation he received from the angel Moroni on September 21, 1823. He stated that after he retired to bed, his room became filled with light. At his bedside stood an angel who called Smith by name and told him that God had a work for the young boy to do. Smith claimed to have been told how, "there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang" (Joseph Smith – History 1:34).

Smith claims that he was not allowed to retrieve the buried plates for another four years. In verse 54 of his testimony, he related that the day he was allowed to dig up the record came on September 22, 1827. Mormon historian Leonard Arrington notes that, "Sometime after midnight in the early morning hours of September 22, Joseph and Emma drove to the hill, obtained the plates and hid them in an old birch log about three miles from the Smith home. With neighboring ruffians seeking the plates, thinking they were of great monetary worth, Joseph changed the hiding place several times and managed to keep them from being discovered and stolen" (Mormonism: From Its New York Beginnings, Dialogue, Vol.13, No.3, p.122). Eventually Joseph Smith would bring the plates home to be translated. His mother, Lucy Mack Smith, remembered the day this way:

"The plates were secreted about three miles from home... Joseph, on coming to them, took them from their secret place, and, wrapping them in his linen frock, placed them under his arm and started for home."

After proceeding a short distance, he thought it would be more safe to leave the road and go through the woods. Traveling some distance after he left the road, he came to a large windfall, and as he was jumping over a log, a man sprang up from behind it, and gave him a heavy blow with a gun. Joseph turned around and knocked him down, then ran at the top of his speed. About half a mile further he was attacked again in the same manner as before; he knocked this man down in like manner as the former, and ran on again; and before he reached home he was assaulted the third time. In striking the last one he dislocated his thumb, which, however, he did not notice until he came within sight of the house, when he threw himself down in the corner of the fence in order to recover his breath. As soon as he was able, he arose and came to the house. lie was still altogether speechless from fright and the fatigue of running" (History of Joseph Smith by His Mother, Lucy Smith, pp.107-108).

Smith stated, "These records were engraven on plates which had the appearance of gold, each plate was six inches wide and eight inches long, and not quite so thick as common tin. They were filled with engravings, in Egyptian characters, and bound together in a volume as the leaves of a book, with three rings running through the whole. The volume was something near six inches in thickness, a part of which was sealed" (History of the Church 4:537)

Numerous LDS leaders and historians have concurred with Smith's description. As to the size and thickness of the plates there seems to be no dispute.

Paintings of Smith show him receiving the plates with outstretched arms or resting on his knee. Although these are just an artist's perception, these descriptions do cause us to ask, "If they really existed, just how heavy would those plates have been given the size and description by Smith?"

The answer to this question is varied. We do know that gold weighs about 1,204 pounds per cubic foot. Given the dimensions by Smith, some have concluded that the plates could have weighed as much as 234 pounds to as little as 100 pounds. The heavier weight is based on what would probably be the total weight of a solid block of gold measuring the size of Smith's plates. This weight, proponents say, would tend to be unlikely due to "air space" between the uneven plates. This argument becomes tenuous given the soft nature of gold. Plates of gold stacked in the manner described by Smith would easily flatten out, thus displacing any arbitrary "air space" suggested by LDS apologists.

Mormon metallurgist Reed Putnam estimates that if the plates were made of pure gold, they would have probably weighed around 100 pounds. Still, this is not at all a reasonable weight that can be carried by even the strongest of New York farm boys. In perspective, that would be like carrying a bag of Portland cement under one's arm.

The possibility of the plates being too heavy for Smith to carry has not escaped the notice of LDS apologists. To credit their founder with the ability to carry such a weight while running at "the top of his speed" would seem to conclude that Smith had no idea how heavy gold really was, thus making it appear that he fabricated this story.

Researchers for the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies (FARMS) have attempted to come to Smith's rescue. In a bulletin cover (number F-15) they provide an explanation for this anomaly. Entitled "Where the Gold Plates Gold?" it theorized that the plates were not made of pure gold at all. Rather, they theorize, that they were composed of an alloy called tumbaga. This Central American alloy, the article states, is made up of 8K gold and copper. In other words, the plates would have been primarily composed of 66% copper and only 33% gold.

The article debunks the notion that the plates could have been made of pure gold since "pure gold would be too soft to make useful plates." However, this argument overlooks Mosiah 8:9 in the Book of Mormon that mentions 24 Jaredite plates that were "filled with engravings, and they are of pure gold."

This argument also fails to take into account a photograph in earlier editions of the Book of Mormon that showed a "gold tablet found in Persia in 1961, dating to the time of Darius II (Fourth century B.C.), covered with cuneiform engravings." The caption went on to say, "This tablet is about the size of the gold plates of the Book of Mormon." In his book entitled An Approach to the Book of Mormon, Dr. Hugh Nibley also mentioned this parallel as evidence to the fact that Smith had plates of gold. If the plates deposited by Moroni were really an alloy made primarily of copper, why go to such lengths?

The FARMS' article supports the tumbaga theory by referring to William Smith, Joseph's brother, who was quoted in the Saints Herald (31, 1884, p. 644) as stating that the plates were a mixture of gold and copper. One can only imagine how William arrived at such a conclusion since there is no evidence to suggest that the plates were ever analyzed. Making William's statement even less credible is the fact that he admitted to having never seen the plates. He claimed, "I was permitted to lift them as they laid in a pillow-case; but not to see them, as was contrary to the commands he had received. They weighed about sixty pounds according to the best of my judgment" (A New Witness for Christ in America 2:417). FARMS insists that tumbaga plates would have weighed only about 53 pounds. In other words, it would be like carrying a sack of redi-mix concrete.

Despite the effort from FARMS to change LDS history, it appears that the tumbaga theory is not being taken too seriously. As recently as May 15, 1999, the LDS Church News ran an article entitled "Hands-on opportunity." Speaking of Joseph Smith, it read, "He had also been instructed by an angel, Moroni, who had met with him each year for four years. On his last visit, he was entrusted with plates of solid gold, which he had been translating by the power of the Spirit."

Keep this in mind the next time you stop at a hardware store. Pick up a bag of cement, tuck it under your arm, and imagine yourself carrying it for a distance of three miles running as fast as you can at least part of the way. For added effect you could jump over a display or two.

It is the same with Mormons. They have faith that their documentation is correct. They cant find the gold plates, we couldnt find Jesus’ body. If you denegrate someone’s faith because you think it is silly, you have to be welcome to them doing the same to you.

Sam, what does this article say?

From the article? ...as May 15, 1999, the LDS Church News ran an article entitled "Hands-on opportunity." Speaking of Joseph Smith, it read, "He had also been instructed by an angel, Moroni, who had met with him each year for four years. On his last visit, he was entrusted with plates of solid gold, which he had been translating by the power of the Spirit."

So, #1, the LDS News says these were "plates of SOLID gold."

Then when you read this article to see how the Mormon apologists try to explain away the "solid gold" nature of these, you realize something: That even Lds apologists don't believe what the LDS News says: that these were "solid gold." They don't, by lack of faith, believe Smith could have run "at top speed" carrying solid gold plates. So they attempt to explain it away. Rather than the "by faith" argument you try to make...Mormon leaders are instead claiming in a round-about way, "Well, we don't believe it, either." (They try desperately to reduce the gold plate poundage)

Then, when you look at De Groote's article in the July 7 Mormon Times (linked in my first several posts of this thread) you realize that Mormons are still trying to "explain it away" -- by lack of faith -- that Smith wasn't really running at top speed with solid gold.

#2 Note the quote I gave above about Smith "translating" the plates. On this, yes, Mormons do express "faith" in this. But you -- and Mormons -- neglect the biblical principle of nobility re: this:

11Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. (Acts 17:11)

This principle shows that a noble person in God's eyes always compares new supposed revelations from God by the old ones. Mormons do just the opposite. If a supposed "new" revelation is at odds with an old one -- they just simply dump the old one. They did this with anti-polygamy revelations in the 1830s...then pro-polygamy revelations from the 1840s and 1850s...they dumped Adam as God seer statements from the 1850s-->1870s...they dumped racist doctrines they held for almost 150 years...etc.

I don't have to dig any deeper since your citation related not at all to my comment. Myths are ridiculous to the non-believer and, as a point of fact, a young man running fast while holding a great (speculativly computed) weight is far more plausible than a virgin birth.

I belong to neither church and have no use for any of the mythology that surrounds them. I have read a few thousand pages of Joseph Campbell's work on mythology and have a few college credits on the topic so I have a fair understanding of what constitutes a myth. As I am sure you understand the notion of a virgin impregnated by a god describes the Mithra cult or the cult of Dionysius both of which predate Christianity

Myths are ridiculous to the non-believer and, as a point of fact, a young man running fast while holding a great (speculativly computed) weight is far more plausible than a virgin birth.

The fact is, as I just told Raider Sam, Mormon apologists actually don't believe the myth that Joseph Smith ran at top speed carrying several hundred pounds of gold plates.

(That's why the citations in this thread's article-- as well as the July 7 Mormon Times article by De Groote...features a number of other explanatory considerations...
...for example, they try to tell you it was a copper-gold mixture...)

Given this is the case, this myth is not only ridiculous to the non-believer -- but it shows it's ridiculous to the supposed inside "believer" as well.

Otherwise, why would they try to explain the "solid gold" component of it away? If they believed Joseph was supernaturally aided by God to run "at top speed" carrying several hundred pounds of solid gold, well, your comment and Raider Sam's comment would be worth pondering...

...However, given that the two Lds apologist organizations -- FARM & FAIR -- have not taken that route...
...given that the Mormon Times (via De Groote) has not taken that route...
...I'm not exactly sure why you & Raider Sam -- both non-Mormons -- are coming aboard to try to prop up a posture these Mormon leaders haven't even tried to assume.

Again, keep in the mind the main focus of this thread has been the weight of the gold plates...and Smith's ability to transfer them three miles so quickly and so readily...

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