Pray For The Peace of Jerusalem
Oh LORD, Our Lord, How Excellent is Your Name Over All The Earth!...Psalm 8:1
I am honored that you ask! I will do so RIGHT NOW!
Welcome to FR's Garden of Prayer for the Peace of Jerusalem!
Posted on 06/27/2010 3:10:25 AM PDT by GonzoII
Scenario:
You're discussing religion with an Evangelical friend. For 20 minutes you've responded as best you can to her pointed arguments against Catholic doctrines like Mary's perpetual virginity, praying to saints, venerating statues, and purgatory. She's unconvinced. You're frustrated. It doesn't look like there's much of a chance you'll agree on anything.
Then comes the jackpot question. "Look," she says earnestly, "we can disagree about many things, but what's most important is that we know we can be saved by Jesus Christ. Tell me, if you were to die tonight, do you know for sure if you'd go to heaven?"
This is the "all-important" question for Evangelical and Fundamentalist Protestants. Although your friend is completely sincere in asking this question (as she's been coached to do by her pastor and the anti-Catholic radio preacher she listens to in the afternoon), you realize that if you don't answer correctly, you'll walk into a sort of theological ambush.
If you respond that Christians can't, apart from a special revelation from God, have metaphysical or absolute certainty concerning their salvation, a completely biblical and theologically precise answer, your Evangelical friend will gleefully spring a "trap" on you, based on 1 John 5:13: "These things I write to you, that you may know you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God."
"See?" she smiles confidently. "The Bible disagrees with you!" She then proceeds to inform you that if you "confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For, with the heart, we believe unto justice; but, with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation" (Rom. 10:9-10).
(Excerpt) Read more at envoymagazine.com ...
Many, many times. Every word.
And I also post a daily thread right here on FR that goes ONE CHAPTER at a time through several Books. In six Months, we have read through several “Minor” Prophets, The First twenty chapters of Exodus, Many Chapters of Genesis, and large portions of Isaiah and Jeremiah. We are Now going Through Psalms, ONE AT A TIME.
Daily.
Have not missed a day in six months, since it was started.
Wanna sign up?
Every word. All the “begats”, all the ritual laws. I’ve done it about 6 times in about 4 different translations.
It’s been a while since the last time, though, so maybe I’ll do it again.
You can surely "opt out" by committing deadly sin..there is no forcing by God to stay in this relationship. And that is what it is, a relationship with God.
It is more than just a relationship. You become a new creation.
“6And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ...” - Phil 1
“By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL...But this man, after he had offered ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS FOREVER, sat down on the right hand of God...for by ONE OFFERING he hath perfected FOREVER them that are sanctified”. (Hebrews 10:10,12,14).
Yes, if works are needed to obtain salvation, they are needed to KEEP salvation. The Scriptures explicity say, as you point out, that FAITH alone in Christ alone is what saves us. A totally paralyzed person can be saved—without moving a muscle to do a “work” towards that end. James points out that such faith works itself out in some manner, however, beginning with a cleansed, changed heart. I have two very close friends who believe that a person can lose his/her salvation. Imagine walking on eggshells every minute of every day, wondering if you have salvation or not.
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But, yeah I have, even the ‘boring’ parts like the genealogies.
No one can be good 100% of the time every day of their life because even though we are saved, sin still lives within us. God knows this and that is why He sent his Son and that if we believe that He came to atone for our sins, that he rose from the dead, then we are saved. To expect us to adhere 100% to scriptural teachings would be to expect 100% perfection from us and there is only One who was 100% perfect - and He died on the cross for us.
We are saved by believing. this is not to say we can go on sinning. But kn owing that sin still lives inside of us we are to bear our cross, deny ourselves and follow Him. that is what brings true happiness on earth and true salvation in heaven.
“If the Bible is supposed to be a rule book, why no consensus on what it demands?”
1. “Bible only” (sola Scriptura) Christians (from the SBC to Calvary Chapel’s to the Church of God) - for whom “only” does not mean that the teaching office of the church is not needed, nor that history and traditions cannot be helpful, but that Scripture alone is the ultimate doctrinal authority on earth, it being the only objective revelation which is affirmed to be wholly God-breathed - almost universally do agree on the foundational truths which are articulated in the Nicene creed, in addition to salvation by grace and the supremacy of Scripture.
This unity is shown its stand against cults which rejects the historical orthodoxy as regards the divine nature of Christ, and the means of salvation, and eternal punishment, etc.
And such aberrations are not the result of sola scriptura (SS) but of formally or effectively holding to an authority over the Bible, such as the Watchtower Society leaders or the “living prophets of the LDS as well as the traditions of Rome which fail of sound Scriptural warrant.
2. Both Rome and evangelicals have standards by which heresy is defined, while allowing for varying degrees of dissent in more peripheral areas. Rome herself has infallibly defined very little of the Bible, and “the Catholic Bible interpreter has the liberty to adopt any interpretation of a passage that is not excluded with certainty by other passages of Scripture, by the judgment of the magisterium, by the Church Fathers, or by the analogy of faith. That is a great deal of liberty, as only a few interpretations will be excluded with certainty by any of the four factors circumscribing the interpreter’s liberty” (Jimmy Akin, Catholic Answers)
Catholics even can disagree somewhat with teachings of the Ordinary and General magisteriums, while a significant number of both priests and laity disagree with some infallible teachings. They usually just do not leave Rome, neither do they need to, and by this Rome effectually teaches that memberships with her is what really counts.
3. Unity itself is not the goal, and if it were then such cults as the WTS would win, and complete doctrinal unity is a goal yet to be reached. The unity of the early church was of heart and mind, but did t encompass all aspects of doctrine that could or would be dealt with.
And while the Scriptures do materially provide for the teaching office, both in the O.T and N.T,, infallibility is not assured based upon conformity with a formula. The Jewish magisterium was in fact reproved for teaching for doctrines the traditions of men which were contrary to Scripture. (Mk. 7:7-13)
Rather, as seen i Acts 15, doctrinal assurance was realized by its conformity with the prior established revelation of the Scriptures, along with accompanying supernatural Divine attestation, which along with its enduring life-changing power, is part of what often worked to establish revelation as being Scriptural.
4. God could have eliminated any rational freedom to dissent, either by opening up the ground to swallow any who opposed a Moses type figure, and or making the Bible even more astounding its predictive elements, and free from any problematic passages which skeptics need to justify their rejection of the rule of God.
But instead, like a veiled women, God most clearly manifested basic truths, beginning with nature, but only those who respond by seeking and obeying out of a honest heart what they know as truth find the truth that makes one free, and progressively so. And the means which such noble souls prove doctrine is by searching the Scriptures (Acts 17:11), by which the Lord and His disciples substantiated what they taught, and in adding to a then-open canon. (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Acts 2:14-40; 13:16-41; 17:2; 18:28; 28:23)
This method must allow for those who reject it, while division because of truth is actually necessary, (1Cor. 11:19) but rather that promoting a paper unity based upon Rome’s self proclaimed formulaic infallibility, the authority of very apostles was established “by the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,” , so they testified, “by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.” (2Cor. 4:2; 6:7)
“For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.” (1Cor. 4:20) And while it lacks the pomp and ceremony or Rome, it is evangelical churches, even its current compromised state, that manifest this the most, over institutionalized counterparts.
To help me read through the Bible again, i began doing this a while ago on Christians Unite, with commentary, though now its about all i can do to read the Bible text. http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=15497.
Thanks. I have read all the Bible through more than once, and just finished the O.T. again, but my concentration level has much decreased, esp. today, and i do better doing doctrinal studies, some which are here: http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/, to God be the glory.
I am working on placing all of the N.T. on html pages, using the free TheWord software which places cross references with the Bible text, and using the RefTagger in the pages allow you to see verse pop ups. Thank God who alone is wholly good. . Best under Firefox. See here for the TOC and Matthew. http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/New_Testament_TOC.html
And thank God for your Is. 66:2 type spirit! And please put this unworthy servant on your list.
Galatians
Chapter 5
1 1 2 For freedom Christ set us free; so stand firm and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery. 2 It is I, Paul, who am telling you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 Once again I declare to every man who has himself circumcised that he is bound to observe the entire law. 3 4 You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we await the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love. 7 You were running well; who hindered you from following (the) truth? 8 That enticement does not come from the one who called you. 9 A little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough. 10 I am confident of you in the Lord that you will not take a different view, and that the one who is troubling you will bear the condemnation, whoever he may be. 11 As for me, brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, 8 why am I still being persecuted? In that case, the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. 12 Would that those who are upsetting you might also castrate themselves! 13 For you were called for freedom, brothers. But do not use this freedom as an opportunity for the flesh; rather, serve one another through love. 14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one statement, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 15 But if you go on biting and devouring one another, beware that you are not consumed by one another. 16 I say, then: live by the Spirit and you will certainly not gratify the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh has desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you may not do what you want. 18 But if you are guided by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, 21 occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 In contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ (Jesus) have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spirit. 26 Let us not be conceited, provoking one another, envious of one another.
I think that says it all. There's lots of footnotes in the New American version.
What I really was wondering is, what authority do you look to? I’m just curious. I don’t go to the religious boards enough to know the discussion.
It is easy to not understand OSAS, if one is dichotomous in their anthropology, vice trichotomous.
Falling out of fellowship or grieving the Holy Spirit, is a consequence of a mental state effecting our relationship with Him, but He doesn’t cease indwelling our spirit when we are out of fellowship.
Too many people confuse forgiveness with salvation. When we are saved, we are also immediately forgiven, but as soon as we sin again, until we face Him and confess our sins, we are not forgiven them. This doesn’t kill the regenerated spirit, rather we are simply out of fellowship. If we were so killed a second time, then nobody would have salvation, because 1) everybody sins, and 2) everybody returns into fellowship by 1st John 1:9, and 3) there was only one sacrifice for sin and if it were no longer sufficient for salvation, then there is no other to provide for us returning to Him.
James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
I am an (Eastern) Orthodox Christian.
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