Posted on 06/13/2010 12:16:24 PM PDT by markomalley
Only in Rome :)
The greek word for Bishop means over seerer just as elder does..it had nothing to do with a priesthood
episkopē
1) investigation, inspection, visitation
a) that act by which God looks into and searches out the ways, deeds character, of men, in order to adjudge them their lot accordingly, whether joyous or sad b) oversight
1) overseership, office, charge, the office of an elder
2) the overseer or presiding officers of a Christian church
No priesthood there Judith
The only priest in the NT church according to the scriptures is Christ
Are you changing the topic?
Do you want to talk about John 6 that has absolutely nothing to do with a priesthood?
Judith there is no priesthood in the NT church because there is no more sacrifices, that was the role of a priest..
Amen
1Ti 2:5 — For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Not many...ONE
Is this what you're wanting?
It's in your Bible.
2 Corinth is dealing with church discipline Judith.. This was about a censured member of the church that had been disciplined by the church at Corinth . The man had repented and pauls message was that they should forgive him and take him back into fellowship. He points to himself as one forgiven and then said he did not want to give Satan any advantage by not forgiving one that repents their sin
Nothing here about the priesthood Judith.. It is about church discipline
Sal, God chose Greek for the NT because it is a VERY precise language.. there are two GREEK words for priest,{archiereus and hiereus] neither of which is used as a role for the NT church.. One can post from a contemporary dictionary or from Catholic sources all they want..it does not change the fact there is no Priesthood allowed for in the NT.
the greek word for elder is different than the greek words for priest.. archiereus which translates into “High Priest” and hiereus which translates one that OFFERS SACRIFICES.
The role of the priesthood in scripture was to offer sacrifices.. That is what a priest does in scripture.. God set aside one tribe to be priests, they were not granted any land as God was their inheritance .
The greek have a couple words for priest
hiereus
1) a priest, one who offers sacrifices and in general in busied with sacred rites
a) referring to priests of Gentiles or the Jews,
2) metaph. of Christians, because, purified by the blood of Christ and brought into close intercourse with God, they devote their life to him alone and to Christ
and archiereus
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) chief priest, high priest
2) the high priests, these comprise in addition to one holding the high priestly office, both those who had previously discharged it and although disposed, continued to have great power in the State, as well as the members of the families from which high priest were created, provided that they had much influence in public affairs.
3) Used of Christ because by undergoing a bloody death he offered himself as an expiatory sacrifice to God, and has entered into the heavenly sanctuary where he continually intercedes on our behalf.
Neither role is given in scripture for the new church ..
Christ fulfilled the role of Priest on the cross.. there is no more sacrifice for sin
He is now our High Priest..
The word for elder is presbyteros here is the GREEK definition
1) elder, of age,
a) the elder of two people
b) advanced in life, an elder, a senior
1) forefathers
2) a term of rank or office
a) among the Jews
1) members of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from elderly men)
2) of those who in separate cities managed public affairs and administered justice
b) among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably
c) the twenty four members of the heavenly Sanhedrin or court seated on thrones around the throne of God
Now the Holy Spirit knows the difference in the greek words.. there is no priesthood provided for in the NT church.
There was no priests in the new church.it was about 300 AD before the first priesthood appeared..
Greg Dues has written Catholic Customs & Traditions, a popular guide (New London: Twenty Third Publications, 2007). On page 166 he states,
“Priesthood as we know it in the Catholic church was unheard of during the first generation of Christianity, because at that time priesthood was still associated with animal sacrifices in both the Jewish and pagan religions.”
“A clearly defined local leadership in the form of elders, or presbyteroi, became still more important when the original apostles and disciples of Jesus died. The chief elder in each community was often called the episkopos (Greek, ‘overseer’). In English this came to be translated as ‘bishop’ (Latin, episcopus). Ordinarily he presided over the community’s Eucharistic assembly.”
“When the Eucharist came to be regarded as a sacrifice, the role of the bishop took on a priestly dimension. By the third century bishops were considered priests. Presbyters or elders sometimes substituted for the bishop at the Eucharist. By the end of the third century people all over were using the title ‘priest’ (hierus in Greek and sacerdos in Latin) for whoever presided at the Eucharist.”
Garry Wills, Professor of History Emeritus, Northwestern U.,
Pulitzer Prize Winner
author of WHY I AM A CATHOLIC, wrote the following in his
Best Seller WHAT JESUS MEANT page 81.
BTW at your urging I did post my testimony on my home page :)
We can not used a contemporary dictionary to tell us what the original greek meant when it was inspired by the Holy Spirit
presbyteros is translated as elder in the NT
1) elder, of age,
a) the elder of two people
b) advanced in life, an elder, a senior
1) forefathers
2) a term of rank or office
a) among the Jews
1) members of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from elderly men)
2) of those who in separate cities managed public affairs and administered justice
b) among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably
c) the twenty four members of the heavenly Sanhedrin or court seated on thrones around the throne of God
I am a presbyterian.. I do know what the word means as we have a biblical form of church government based on the NT model :)
Thank you Rn
I am not "demanding" anything
Catholics all claim theirs was the original church of the NT..yet we see that in that NT church there was no pope, no apostolic succession, and no priesthood.
NL.. The Old testament points to Christ, it is ALL about Christ. It is full of types and shadows of Christ.. The priesthood was one of those types.. Once Jesus fulfilled the type as both the one that offers the sacrifice (Jhn 10:18 — No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.) and the type of the lamb of God (Treasury of Scripture Knowledge Jhn 1:29 — The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.)
There was no longer any need for future sacrifices and the types were fulfilled.. thus the NT church has no need for a priesthood, and the Jewish priesthood was eliminated by God because the type was fulfilled
Now if you guys want to point to a tradition that began 300 years after Christ as tradition.. be my guest..but then do not claim to be the early Biblical church
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Whata ya thinkin'??? One also means two hundred million??? Or One means Jesus and His mother???
ONE MEDIATOR between man and God, the man Christ Jesus...
Perhaps you should consult your Funk & Wagnall...
There is ONE mediator...Praying for someone is NOT mediating...Your religion planted another false seed in your brain...
None of that rationalizes, justifies or validates the heretical concept of Sola Scriptura with which so-called reformists redacted scripture and closed the door to a living and active Holy Spirit. What a shame Protestants deny themselves the entire revealed word of God in the name of the man-made traditions of the so-called reformists.
And yet we hear ad naseum how the contemporary dictionary should be used to redefine Latin phrases like Alter Christus when it was inspired by the same Holy Spirit......LOL
The presbytery is the priesthood. Matter of translating.
These are not my words. The first quote is from Jesus Christ and the second from St. Paul. I did not write either one.
The quote from Timothy shows that the priesthood (or presbytery if you prefer) succeeds from the Apostles. You are correct that deacons are likewise ordained, but not into priesthood.
The quote from Luke instructs the apostles to offer the sacrifice of Christ. That by definition makes them priests.
My question to you is, where are the Protestant heresies of "faith alone" and "Bible alone" in the scripture?
Actually...a few places:
The first and most obvious (i.e., verbatim) is Romans 15:16
to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
You will remember the third question that I asked you in post #22: Perhaps you could explain what your understanding of the role of the priest is?
It wasn't a rhetorical question. There is an answer to that. If you look at Heb 5:1, you will find the answer (to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins)
If we take a look, functionally, we see a whole lot that opens up for us:
- Phil 2:17 Even if I am to be poured as a libation upon the sacrificial offering of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all.
- Rom 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
- 1 Pet 2:5 and like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
See, we are all called to offer our faith, our bodies, our selves as sacrifices as priests. As St. Peter said, you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood (1 Pet 2:9). What is a priest? One who offers gifts and sacrifices (Heb 5:1).
But what makes this so? What makes us priests? The mere fact that Christ is in us! (Col 1:27).
The Royal Priesthood was something that was foreshadowed in the Old Testament covenant with the House of Israel. God told Moses, and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation (Ex 19.6). He was not referring only to the House of Levi, but to all of Israel. And this was confirmed in the Apocalypse of St. John: and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father (Rev 1.6). And, for that matter, it is stated also during the thousand year reign: Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years. (Rev 20.6)
Of course, you have the Royal priesthood versus the ministerial priesthood. That, too, was foreshadowed in the Old Testament. You recall the quote from Exodus above? All of Israel were called to be a royal priesthood, yet only a small subset of them were called for service in the Temple. Same thing here.
But, as you pointed out in your post #2, He is offering continual sacrifices for us in heaven. This is almost true and is alluded to in Rev 5:6. He was sacrificed Once for all and entered into the sanctuary once to offer that sacrifice of Himself. He remains in that sanctuary (Rev 5.6). And it is that which is offered by Christ at each Mass.
Mad Dawg, you are far more the scholar than I. Do I pretty well have a handle on the Scriptures above?
I wouldn't presume to comment authoritatively on the particular scriptures, not while I have this headache. But I checked the Rom 15:16 (with which I was not familiar) and "priestly service" sure seems right to me, with the "iero" stem as part of the word.
I do very much like your general theme, which I will mangle thus: We are all priests and the church has an order of priests which most definitely is NOT a continuation or a ver. 2.1b of the OT priesthood.
And we are, and the Church does have, priests because of the mystical (and, I would keep insisting, proleptically apprehended eschatological) union with Christ in the Spirit, the union which makes the Church His body.
In and because of that objective Spiritual union, by God's grace, which is always more than we could imagine or pray for, we may make feeble, half-hearted, and self-conscious offerings of our "works and prayers, joys and sufferings" daily and take confidence that these little things of ours are swept along in the great torrent which is the Passion of Christ.
And as Christ and His Passion, Death, and Resurrection (and all the rest) somehow stand as the forming standard for our offerings, the Eucharist is so united to Him and His work that it is rightly called the source and summit of our faith.
And so the sacred presbyterate, with the college of Bishops and that of deacons, have a creating (in an intermediate way) and a "norming" relationship with the priesthood of all believers. We all offer Christ and we all are that which we offer. The whole Church, the laity in a special way, make that offering mystically. In addition, the presbyterate makes it sacramentally.
How's that?
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