That's not veneration. That's worship by any dictionary definition.
Posted on 05/31/2010 6:33:12 AM PDT by Cronos
The Greek word in 1 John 5:13 meaning “you may know” is eidte. This does not mean an absolute knowledge. In the very next verse (14-15) it says if we ask for something in our prayers, we will receive it using the same word” eidte”. -Does this mean God gives us everything we ask for when we pray? Of course not. 1John 3:21-22-”Beloved, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence in God and receive from him whatever we ask, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases Him.” Here John is telling us that we have confidence,not absolute assurance.
Amazing isn't it???? They really have NO CLUE how utterly offensive and repugnant this stuff is to true Christians.
To say nothing of scapulars. Wear a garment, get out of Hell. Guaranteed.
...you keep saying your church goes back [only] 2000 years.
Mine goes back, arguably to the time of Abraham & Melchizedek [Psalm 110:4 — “The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.”] or to the Garden [Gen 3:15 — “15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”], or to before time [John ch 1].
As I read what he wrote I am ashamed of the command that I myself have of the English language compared to him ... and yet, at the same time I feel a certain sense of blessing that I did not grow up with the poisonous bitterness that this man had, which has captivated his soul into complete ignorance.
In almost every sentence he eloquently places a profound lie on display that will be eagerly lapped up by the equally ignorant.
Good thing you put that “/sarc” there... I was getting ready to “tear you a new one.” — LOL
Do Catholics Worship Statues?
“Catholics worship statues!” People still make this ridiculous claim. Because Catholics have statues in their churches, goes the accusation, they are violating God’s commandment: “You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow down to them or serve them” (Ex. 20:4–5); “Alas, this people have sinned a great sin; they have made for themselves gods of gold” (Ex. 32:31).
It is right to warn people against the sin of idolatry when they are committing it. But calling Catholics idolaters because they have images of Christ and the saints is based on misunderstanding or ignorance of what the Bible says about the purpose and uses (both good and bad) of statues.
Anti-Catholic writer Loraine Boettner, in his book Roman Catholicism, makes the blanket statement, “God has forbidden the use of images in worship” (281). Yet if people were to “search the scriptures” (cf. John 5:39), they would find the opposite is true. God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues. Instead, he actually commanded their use in religious contexts!
God Said To Make Them
People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: “And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be” (Ex. 25:18–20).
David gave Solomon the plan “for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan” (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was “by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all,” included statues of angels.
Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, “On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim.”
The Religious Uses of Images
During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to “make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live” (Num. 21:8–9).
One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.
Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.
If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these “graven” images, they would be practicing the “idolatry” of which they accuse Catholics. But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but he doesn’t ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned. But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.
It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry. Thus when people did start to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named “Nehushtan”), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4).
What About Bowing?
Sometimes anti-Catholics cite Deuteronomy 5:9, where God said concerning idols, “You shall not bow down to them.” Since many Catholics sometimes bow or kneel in front of statues of Jesus and the saints, anti-Catholics confuse the legitimate veneration of a sacred image with the sin of idolatry.
Though bowing can be used as a posture in worship, not all bowing is worship. In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake). Similarly, a person can kneel before a king without worshipping him as a god. In the same way, a Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn’t worshipping the statue or even praying to it, any more than the Protestant who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshipping the Bible or praying to it.
Hiding the Second Commandment?
Another charge sometimes made by Protestants is that the Catholic Church “hides” the second commandment. This is because in Catholic catechisms, the first commandment is often listed as “You shall have no other gods before me” (Ex. 20:3), and the second is listed as “You shall not take the name of the Lord in vain.” (Ex. 20:7). From this, it is argued that Catholics have deleted the prohibition of idolatry to justify their use of religious statues. But this is false. Catholics simply group the commandments differently from most Protestants.
In Exodus 20:2–17, which gives the Ten Commandments, there are actually fourteen imperative statements. To arrive at Ten Commandments, some statements have to be grouped together, and there is more than one way of doing this. Since, in the ancient world, polytheism and idolatry were always united—idolatry being the outward expression of polytheism—the historic Jewish numbering of the Ten Commandments has always grouped together the imperatives “You shall have no other gods before me” (Ex. 20:3) and “You shall not make for yourself a graven image” (Ex. 20:4). The historic Catholic numbering follows the Jewish numbering on this point, as does the historic Lutheran numbering. Martin Luther recognized that the imperatives against polytheism and idolatry are two parts of a single command.
Jews and Christians abbreviate the commandments so that they can be remembered using a summary, ten-point formula. For example, Jews, Catholics, and Protestants typically summarize the Sabbath commandment as, “Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy,” though the commandment’s actual text takes four verses (Ex. 20:8–11).
When the prohibition of polytheism/idolatry is summarized, Jews, Catholics, and Lutherans abbreviate it as “You shall have no other gods before me.” This is no attempt to “hide” the idolatry prohibition (Jews and Lutherans don’t even use statues of saints and angels). It is to make learning the Ten Commandments easier.
The Catholic Church is not dogmatic about how the Ten Commandments are to be numbered, however. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, “The division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. The present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. It is also that of the Lutheran confession. The Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities” (CCC 2066).
The Form of God?
Some anti-Catholics appeal to Deuteronomy 4:15–18 in their attack on religious statues: “[S]ince you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth.”
We’ve already shown that God doesn’t prohibit the making of statues or images of various creatures for religious purposes (cf. 1 Kgs. 6:29–32, 8:6–66; 2 Chr. 3:7–14). But what about statues or images that represent God? Many Protestants would say that’s wrong because Deuteronomy 4 says the Israelites did not see God under any form when he made the covenant with them, therefore we should not make symbolic representations of God either. But does Deuteronomy 4 forbid such representations?
The Answer Is No
Early in its history, Israel was forbidden to make any depictions of God because he had not revealed himself in a visible form. Given the pagan culture surrounding them, the Israelites might have been tempted to worship God in the form of an animal or some natural object (e.g., a bull or the sun).
But later God did reveal himself under visible forms, such as in Daniel 7:9: “As I looked, thrones were placed and one that was Ancient of Days took his seat; his raiment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames, its wheels were burning fire.” Protestants make depictions of the Father under this form when they do illustrations of Old Testament prophecies.
The Holy Spirit revealed himself under at least two visible forms—that of a dove, at the baptism of Jesus (Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32), and as tongues of fire, on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4). Protestants use these images when drawing or painting these biblical episodes and when they wear Holy Spirit lapel pins or place dove emblems on their cars.
But, more important, in the Incarnation of Christ his Son, God showed mankind an icon of himself. Paul said, “He is the image (Greek: ikon) of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” Christ is the tangible, divine “icon” of the unseen, infinite God.
We read that when the magi were “going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshipped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold, frankincense, and myrrh” (Matt. 2:11). Though God did not reveal a form for himself on Mount Horeb, he did reveal one in the house in Bethlehem.
The bottom line is, when God made the New Covenant with us, he did reveal himself under a visible form in Jesus Christ. For that reason, we can make representations of God in Christ. Even Protestants use all sorts of religious images: Pictures of Jesus and other biblical persons appear on a myriad of Bibles, picture books, T-shirts, jewelry, bumper stickers, greeting cards, compact discs, and manger scenes. Christ is even symbolically represented through the Icthus or “fish emblem.”
Common sense tells us that, since God has revealed himself in various images, most especially in the incarnate Jesus Christ, it’s not wrong for us to use images of these forms to deepen our knowledge and love of God. That’s why God revealed himself in these visible forms, and that’s why statues and pictures are made of them.
Idolatry Condemned by the Church
Since the days of the apostles, the Catholic Church has consistently condemned the sin of idolatry. The early Church Fathers warn against this sin, and Church councils also dealt with the issue.
The Second Council of Nicaea (787), which dealt largely with the question of the religious use of images and icons, said, “[T]he one who redeemed us from the darkness of idolatrous insanity, Christ our God, when he took for his bride his holy Catholic Church . . . promised he would guard her and assured his holy disciples saying, ‘I am with you every day until the consummation of this age.’ . . . To this gracious offer some people paid no attention; being hoodwinked by the treacherous foe they abandoned the true line of reasoning . . . and they failed to distinguish the holy from the profane, asserting that the icons of our Lord and of his saints were no different from the wooden images of satanic idols.”
The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed “by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them” (374).
“Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’” (CCC 2114).
The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry. What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical . Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible. http://www.catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp
Please clarify. What is the purpose of icons?
I asked you, and will not be searching for a reply somewhere in Radio Replies. As for your other reference, this is not the first time you “stole it: response http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2504585/posts?page=201#201
And as then, it misconstrues what the supremacy of Scripture effects, which is not the dismissal of twenty centuries of spiritual and intellectual work (which many great evangelical minds study, and Catholics are typically also ignorant of both) but what holding Scripture as supreme means is that we are to search the scriptures, to find out “whether those things were so.” (Acts 17:11). This being done, we may “hold fast that which is good,” and not fall into the error of implicit faith in a self-proclaimed “infallible” authority. And which has been expanded upon above.
BipolarBob:
>>”Orestes Brownson, a former Congregationalist minister
>
>Here we go again. Orestes Brownson or OJ Simpson, I don’t listen to them. Quote the Bible or give up.
I see your point and agree; yet Leoni has consistently refused to address my posts... in fact, it seems to me that he goes out of his way to do so.
>>”Protestants do not study for the truth, and are never to be presumed willing to accept it, unless it chances to be where and what they wish it.”
Who are you (Leoni or Brownson) to try my heart?
You, Leoni, have done NOTHING to address my claims or reasoning: no counter-argument or taking issue with a premise... thusly, your actions show you to be the one who is unwilling to accept (or reason-out, or seek-out) truth.
>I really like being talked down to and told what I think and do, don’t you?
Yeah, BipolarBob; it’s AWESOME when someone preemptively jumps your shit because of “something you were going to say.” {Distinct from someone preemptively presenting a counter to some anticipated counter-argument.}
>>”There is not a single Protestant doctrine opposed to Catholicity that even Protestants themselves have not over and over again completely refuted’
Indulgences. To my knowledge ALL protestant denominations have been unified in the condemnation of the practice of indulgences.
conservativegramma:
>Amazing isn’t it???? They really have NO CLUE how utterly offensive and repugnant this stuff is to true Christians.
Indeed.
Even to rationality Leoni is offensive, see:
Leoni’s Post #235 — http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2524569/posts?q=1&;page=201#235
and my reply, #238 — http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2524569/posts?page=238#238
You mean the Saint pictures on a card with a pray on the back for your walk with Christ or a funeral card( people are sentimental but still a pray)? I think you also mean some cards touched to a relic? yes?
This might help for emulating a saints | Catholic Apologetics | Christian Worldview | Non-Catholic -Isms | About Me | Resume
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2009/10/biblical-evidence-for-veneration-of.html
Monday, October 12, 2009
Biblical Evidence for the Veneration of Saints and Imitation of Holy Persons as Models (Especially Mary: Pope Benedict XVI’s Angelus of 10-11-09)s | Catholic Apologetics | Christian Worldview | Non-Catholic -Isms | About Me | Resume
Monday, October 12, 2009
Biblical Evidence for the Veneration of Saints and Imitation of Holy Persons as Models (Especially Mary: Pope Benedict XVI’s Angelus of 10-11-09)
Vatican City, Oct 11, 2009 / 11:27 am (CNA).- Presiding over the Sunday Angelus following the canonization Mass for five new saints, Pope Benedict XVI stressed that “the Virgin Mary is the star that guides” us in every “area of holiness.”
The Pope thanked the faithful from all around the world who traveled to Rome for the canonization Mass and remarked that Mary’s fiat, her “yes,” makes her a “model of perfect adherence to the divine will.”
In his words to the English-speaking pilgrims, the Holy Father said, “May these new saints accompany you with their prayers and inspire you by the example of their holy lives.”
(article from Catholic News Agency)
This sort of expression and belief has explicit biblical sanction, above all from St. Paul:
Romans 11:13-14 (KJV) For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: [14] If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
(RSV: “make my fellow Jews jealous”; NEB: “I try to stir emulation in the men of my own race”; i.e., by emulation of the Gentiles and/or Paul, the Jews could be saved, so that they are being saved in part by means of an example to imitate)
1 Corinthians 4:15-16 (RSV, as throughout, unless indicated otherwise) For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. I urge you, then, be imitators of me.
1 Corinthians 9:19-22 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, that I might win the more. [20] To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law — though not being myself under the law — that I might win those under the law. [21] To those outside the law I became as one outside the law — not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ — that I might win those outside the law. [22] To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1 Corinthians 11:1-2 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. [2] I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.
Philippians 3:17 Brethren, join in imitating me, and mark those who so live as you have an example in us.
Philippians 4:8-9 Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. [9] What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, do; and the God of peace will be with you.
1 Thessalonians 1:6-7 And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with joy inspired by the Holy Spirit; [7] so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedo’nia and in Acha’ia.
1 Thessalonians 2:9-14 For you remember our labor and toil, brethren; we worked night and day, that we might not burden any of you, while we preached to you the gospel of God. [10] You are witnesses, and God also, how holy and righteous and blameless was our behavior to you believers; [11] for you know how, like a father with his children, we exhorted each one of you and encouraged you and charged you [12] to lead a life worthy of God, who calls you into his own kingdom and glory. [13] And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.[14] For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus which are in Judea; for you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews,
2 Thessalonians 3:7-9 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us; we were not idle when we were with you, we did not eat any one’s bread without paying, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not burden any of you. It was not because we have not that right, but to give you in our conduct an example to imitate.
1 Timothy 4:12 Let no one despise your youth, but set the believers an example in speech and conduct, in love, in faith, in purity.
2 Timothy 3:10-14 Now you have observed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, [11] my persecutions, my sufferings, what befell me at Antioch, at Ico’nium, and at Lystra, what persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me. [12] Indeed all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, [13] while evil men and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived. [14] But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it
Titus 2:7-8 Show yourself in all respects a model of good deeds, and in your teaching show integrity, gravity, [8] and sound speech that cannot be censured, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say of us.
Non-Pauline passages teach the same thing:
John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. [35] By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
John 17:20-23 “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, [21] that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. [22] The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, [23] I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.
Hebrews 6:12 so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Hebrews 11:32-38 And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets — who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, received promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched raging fire, escaped the edge of the sword, won strength out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. Women received their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they might rise again to a better life. Others suffered mocking and scourging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword; they went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, ill-treated — of whom the world was not worthy — wandering over deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Hebrews 13:7 Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith.
James 5:10-11 As an example of suffering and patience, brethren, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. Behold, we call those happy who were steadfast. You have heard of the steadfastness of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, how the Lord is compassionate and merciful.
1 Peter 3:1-2 Likewise you wives, be submissive to your husbands, so that some, though they do not obey the word, may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, [2] when they see your reverent and chaste behavior.
1 Peter 5:2-3 Tend the flock of God that is your charge, not by constraint but willingly, not for shameful gain but eagerly, [3] not as domineering over those in your charge but being examples to the flock.
3 John 1:9-11 I have written something to the church; but Diot’rephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge my authority. [10] So if I come, I will bring up what he is doing, prating against me with evil words. And not content with that, he refuses himself to welcome the brethren, and also stops those who want to welcome them and puts them out of the church. [11] Beloved, do not imitate evil but imitate good. He who does good is of God; he who does evil has not seen God.
By analogy, it is altogether proper to venerate and honor saints, who have more perfectly attained God’s likeness (Mt 22:30; 1 Cor 13:9-12; 2 Cor 3:18; Phil 3:21; Heb 11:40; 1 Jn 3:2; Rev 21:27; 22:14), in light of the example of how “heroes of the faith” are regarded (Hebrews 11) and also the biblical injunctions to honor all sorts of people:
Romans 12:10 love one another with brotherly affection; outdo one another in showing honor. (cf. 1 Cor 12:23-26)
Romans 13:6-7 For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.
Ephesians 6:2 “Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), (cf. Ex 20:12; Deut 5:16)
1 Timothy 5:3 Honor widows who are real widows.
1 Timothy 5:17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;
1 Peter 2:17 Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.
1 Peter 3:7 Likewise you husbands, live considerately with your wives, bestowing honor on the woman . . . (cf. Gen 30:20)
King Asa was honored after his death:
2 Chronicles 16:14 They buried him in the tomb which he had hewn out for himself in the city of David. They laid him on a bier which had been filled with various kinds of spices prepared by the perfumer’s art; and they made a very great fire in his honor. (cf. 21:19, showing that this was a general practice)
King Hezekiah was also so honored:
2 Chronicles 32:33 And Hezeki’ah slept with his fathers, and they buried him in the ascent of the tombs of the sons of David; and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem did him honor at his death.
So how is it that we are told that we cannot honor and venerate fellow human saints, since they are dead? Just because they no longer walk the earth, it doesn’t follow at all (per Hebrews 11) that they are no longer worthy of honor and veneration.
The problem is that, too often, false man-made traditions are injected into topics and folks ignore what God’s inspired, infallible Word actually teaches us on the subject. Some Protestants will argue that imitating any created person as a model of holiness is “idolatry” because Christ is our sole model.
Such a notion is, of course, directly contradicted by the passages above. The Bible (especially St. Paul, over and over) expressly commands us to imitate holy people and to see them as models for holiness, worthy of honor and veneration. None of this is seen as the slightest contradiction to Jesus being our model. He certainly is, but so also are those who are being perfected by His grace, and His grace alone.
In fact, St. Paul makes it clear more than once that imitating him is in complete harmony with the notion of imitating Christ, whom Paul is imitating (see, e.g., Ephesians 5:1: “Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children:): “Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1); “And you became imitators of us and of the Lord . . .” (1 Thess 1:6).
It’s not either/or. That is the goofy man-made tradition and illogical thought, but assuredly it is not the biblical worldview.
For someone like, for example, John Calvin, and certain other so-called “reformers” of his time (blessedly, not including Martin Luther), it was idolatry not only to venerate and imitate saints, but even to have statues of Jesus Christ and crucifixes (”the devilish form of Christ”); even bare crosses. Thus we see how ridiculous and absurd and extreme men’s traditions become, once a particular biblical teaching or principle is rejected. They eventually become their own refutations.
Vatican City, Oct 11, 2009 / 11:27 am (CNA).- Presiding over the Sunday Angelus following the canonization Mass for five new saints, Pope Benedict XVI stressed that “the Virgin Mary is the star that guides” us in every “area of holiness.”
The Pope thanked the faithful from all around the world who traveled to Rome for the canonization Mass and remarked that Mary’s fiat, her “yes,” makes her a “model of perfect adherence to the divine will.”
In his words to the English-speaking pilgrims, the Holy Father said, “May these new saints accompany you with their prayers and inspire you by the example of their holy lives.”
(article from Catholic News Agency)
This sort of expression and belief has explicit biblical sanction, above all from St. Paul:
Romans 11:13-14 (KJV) For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: [14] If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
(RSV: “make my fellow Jews jealous”; NEB: “I try to stir emulation in the men of my own race”; i.e., by emulation of the Gentiles and/or Paul, the Jews could be saved, so that they are being saved in part by means of an example to imitate)
1 Corinthians 4:15-16 (RSV, as throughout, unless indicated otherwise) For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. I urge you, then, be imitators of me.
1 Corinthians 9:19-22 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, that I might win the more. [20] To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law — though not being myself under the law — that I might win those under the law. [21] To those outside the law I became as one outside the law — not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ — that I might win those outside the law. [22] To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1 Corinthians 11:1-2 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. [2] I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.
Philippians 3:17 Brethren, join in imitating me, and mark those who so live as you have an example in us.
Philippians 4:8-9 Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. [9] What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, do; and the God of peace will be with you.
1 Thessalonians 1:6-7 And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with joy inspired by the Holy Spirit; [7] so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedo’nia and in Acha’ia.
1 Thessalonians 2:9-14 For you remember our labor and toil, brethren; we worked night and day, that we might not burden any of you, while we preached to you the gospel of God. [10] You are witnesses, and God also, how holy and righteous and blameless was our behavior to you believers; [11] for you know how, like a father with his children, we exhorted each one of you and encouraged you and charged you [12] to lead a life worthy of God, who calls you into his own kingdom and glory. [13] And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.[14] For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus which are in Judea; for you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews,
2 Thessalonians 3:7-9 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us; we were not idle when we were with you, we did not eat any one’s bread without paying, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not burden any of you. It was not because we have not that right, but to give you in our conduct an example to imitate.
1 Timothy 4:12 Let no one despise your youth, but set the believers an example in speech and conduct, in love, in faith, in purity.
2 Timothy 3:10-14 Now you have observed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, [11] my persecutions, my sufferings, what befell me at Antioch, at Ico’nium, and at Lystra, what persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me. [12] Indeed all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, [13] while evil men and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived. [14] But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it
Titus 2:7-8 Show yourself in all respects a model of good deeds, and in your teaching show integrity, gravity, [8] and sound speech that cannot be censured, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say of us.
Non-Pauline passages teach the same thing:
John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. [35] By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
John 17:20-23 “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, [21] that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. [22] The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, [23] I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.
Hebrews 6:12 so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Hebrews 11:32-38 And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets — who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, received promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched raging fire, escaped the edge of the sword, won strength out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. Women received their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they might rise again to a better life. Others suffered mocking and scourging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword; they went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, ill-treated — of whom the world was not worthy — wandering over deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Hebrews 13:7 Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith.
James 5:10-11 As an example of suffering and patience, brethren, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. Behold, we call those happy who were steadfast. You have heard of the steadfastness of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, how the Lord is compassionate and merciful.
1 Peter 3:1-2 Likewise you wives, be submissive to your husbands, so that some, though they do not obey the word, may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, [2] when they see your reverent and chaste behavior.
1 Peter 5:2-3 Tend the flock of God that is your charge, not by constraint but willingly, not for shameful gain but eagerly, [3] not as domineering over those in your charge but being examples to the flock.
3 John 1:9-11 I have written something to the church; but Diot’rephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge my authority. [10] So if I come, I will bring up what he is doing, prating against me with evil words. And not content with that, he refuses himself to welcome the brethren, and also stops those who want to welcome them and puts them out of the church. [11] Beloved, do not imitate evil but imitate good. He who does good is of God; he who does evil has not seen God.
By analogy, it is altogether proper to venerate and honor saints, who have more perfectly attained God’s likeness (Mt 22:30; 1 Cor 13:9-12; 2 Cor 3:18; Phil 3:21; Heb 11:40; 1 Jn 3:2; Rev 21:27; 22:14), in light of the example of how “heroes of the faith” are regarded (Hebrews 11) and also the biblical injunctions to honor all sorts of people:
Romans 12:10 love one another with brotherly affection; outdo one another in showing honor. (cf. 1 Cor 12:23-26)
Romans 13:6-7 For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.
Ephesians 6:2 “Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), (cf. Ex 20:12; Deut 5:16)
1 Timothy 5:3 Honor widows who are real widows.
1 Timothy 5:17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;
1 Peter 2:17 Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.
1 Peter 3:7 Likewise you husbands, live considerately with your wives, bestowing honor on the woman . . . (cf. Gen 30:20)
King Asa was honored after his death:
2 Chronicles 16:14 They buried him in the tomb which he had hewn out for himself in the city of David. They laid him on a bier which had been filled with various kinds of spices prepared by the perfumer’s art; and they made a very great fire in his honor. (cf. 21:19, showing that this was a general practice)
King Hezekiah was also so honored:
2 Chronicles 32:33 And Hezeki’ah slept with his fathers, and they buried him in the ascent of the tombs of the sons of David; and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem did him honor at his death.
So how is it that we are told that we cannot honor and venerate fellow human saints, since they are dead? Just because they no longer walk the earth, it doesn’t follow at all (per Hebrews 11) that they are no longer worthy of honor and veneration.
The problem is that, too often, false man-made traditions are injected into topics and folks ignore what God’s inspired, infallible Word actually teaches us on the subject. Some Protestants will argue that imitating any created person as a model of holiness is “idolatry” because Christ is our sole model.
Such a notion is, of course, directly contradicted by the passages above. The Bible (especially St. Paul, over and over) expressly commands us to imitate holy people and to see them as models for holiness, worthy of honor and veneration. None of this is seen as the slightest contradiction to Jesus being our model. He certainly is, but so also are those who are being perfected by His grace, and His grace alone.
In fact, St. Paul makes it clear more than once that imitating him is in complete harmony with the notion of imitating Christ, whom Paul is imitating (see, e.g., Ephesians 5:1: “Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children:): “Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1); “And you became imitators of us and of the Lord . . .” (1 Thess 1:6).
It’s not either/or. That is the goofy man-made tradition and illogical thought, but assuredly it is not the biblical worldview.
For someone like, for example, John Calvin, and certain other so-called “reformers” of his time (blessedly, not including Martin Luther), it was idolatry not only to venerate and imitate saints, but even to have statues of Jesus Christ and crucifixes (”the devilish form of Christ”); even bare crosses. Thus we see how ridiculous and absurd and extreme men’s traditions become, once a particular biblical teaching or principle is rejected. They eventually become their own refutations. BY DAVE ARMSTRONG
Hey, get caught up - you seem to thrive on labels, sects, denominations, what man said what,etc.
True Christianity is Non-denominational - nothing to do with ‘organized religion’ and ALL to do about GOD’S WORD and a personal relationship with The Father. And that is called walking like Jesus walked! No one claims ownership of HIS Church for HE is the Head of His Church and no one else.
More accurately a word form (depending on the grammer) of εἴδω - eidō: εἴδω (eidō, 1492), ἴδω, Lat. video, [Skr. vid, pi. vêda know, vind-â-mi find, (cf. Vedas); Curtius § 282], an obsol. form of the present tense, the place of which is supplied by ὁράω. The tenses coming from εἴδω and retained by usage form two families, of which one signifies to see, the other to know.
When εἶδον, ἰδεῖν are called momentary preterites,’ it must not be supposed that thereby a quickly-past action is designated; these forms merely present the action without reference to its duration.... The unaugmented moods, too, are not exclusively past, but present or future as well, — the last most decidedly in the imperative. Now it is obvious that when a perception is stated without regard to its duration, its form or mode cannot have prominence; hence ἰδεῖν is much less physical than ὁρᾶν. ἰδεῖν denotes to perceive with the eyes; ὁρᾶν [q. v.], on the other hand, to see, i. e. it marks the use and action of the eye as the principal thing. Perception as denoted by ἰδεῖν, when conceived of as completed, permits the sensuous element to be forgotten and abides merely as an activity of the soul; for οῖδα, εἰδέναι, signifies not “to have seen,” but “to know.”’ [Schmidt ch. xi. Comp.: ἀπ-, ἐπ-, προ-, συν-, ὑπερ-εῖδον.]
From Strong's:
G1492
εἴδω
eidō
i'-do
A primary verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equivalent, G3700 and G3708; properly to see (literally or figuratively); by implication (in the perfect only) to know: - be aware, behold, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) known (-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wist, wot. Compare G3700.
A form of eidō appears in:
Matthew 1:20 - But while he thought on these things, behold, [ἰδοὺ] the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David,
Matthew 1:23 - Behold [ἰδοὺ] a virgin shall be with child.....
Matthew 2:1 - ....behold [ἰδοὺ] there came wise men from the east..
Matthew 2:2 - ......we have seen [εἴδομεν] his star in the east....
Matthew 2:9 - .....and lo [ἰδοὺ] the star, which they saw [εἶδον] in the east....
Matthew 2:10 - When they saw [ἰδόντες] the star...
Matthew 2:11 - ....they saw [εἶδον] the young child....
Matthew 2:13 - .....behold [ἰδοὺ] the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph....
Matthew 2:16 - Then Herod, when he saw [ἰδὼν] that he was mocked of the wise men...
Guess Joseph didn't really have 'absolute knowledge' about the whole virgin birth thingy according to your defnition it can't mean 'absolute knowledge'. He must have imagined all that. See he couldn't possibly have 'absolute knowledge' there was no way for any of us to be certain the Son of God was ever conceived or born into this world - its all allegory. See what happens when you take away the clear meaning of Scripture???? Doctrinal error. More:
Matthew 6:8 - Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth [οἶδεν] what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
Guess God the Father hasn't got 'absolute knowledge' either.
Matthew 8:14 - And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw [εἶδεν] his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.
Guess Jesus just 'imagined' he saw Peter's mother-in-law sick in bed since eidte doesn't mean 'absolute knowledge' in this passage either.
Matthew 9:4 - And Jesus knowing [ἰδὼν] their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
And of course in this passage Jesus couldn't "KNOW" anything since eidte doesn't mean 'absolute knowledge'.
Yes I know, I'm being sarcastic. Sarcastic because its perfectly obvious to anyone with a functioning brain and isn't trying to discount Scripture that eidō very much means an absolute knowledge. The very same knowledge that I have that my husband just came home from work because I just SAW his car pull into the driveway. That's the proper usage of eidō.
As to I John 5:15 - And if we know [οἴδαμεν] that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know [οἴδαμεν] that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
Read that section again. οἴδαμεν is found in conjunction with 'that HE [God] hear us'....Are you suggesting that God DOESN'T KNOW if HE hears prayers or not??? That GOD HIMSELF HAS NO ABSOLUTE KNOWLEDGE? Poppycock. As to 'knowing' that God grants our petitions - He does.
"One who believes in the name of Jesus Christ has an assurance (parresia) in approaching God in prayer. Requests made in accordance with God's will are heard by Him and a believer can be certain of receiving answers to them. Naturally, Christians today discern God's will through the Scriptures and ask accordingly....John was thinking especially, though not exclusively, of a Christian's right to ask God for help in keeping His commands. That kind of prayer is transparently according to His will. Thus in victorious living a Christian is relieved of any burden through prayer that is based on faith in the name of God's Son." ("The Bible Knowledge Commentary"; Walvoord and Zuck; Chariot Victor Publishing, page 902).
Every prayer I have ever prayed seeking the Lord's will for His glory has always been answered. He doesn't answer yours? Perhaps He doesn't hear you. (Isaiah 59:2)
I can go on and on here how eidō in all its word forms HAVE BEEN USED throughout the BIBLE to translate certain knowledge about something. That which HAS BEEN SEEN, 'behold', 'lo', 'he saw', etc. The same in I John 5:13 'that you may know' is as certain a knowledge as Joseph's knowledge was certain Mary was with child by the Holy Spirit.
The only reason you wish to twist this verse out of its intended meaning is because it takes the focus OFF the authority of the magisterium's dictates of endless keeping of sacraments and decrees and puts the focus where it belongs: on the individual believer's personal relationship with the Son of God rather than a pope. That is naturally anathema to the followers of men rather than God.
Nothing else ... including the Holy Spirit.... and yet God gave us the Holy Spirit, who "will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."
Isn't it amazing how Scripture (which wasn't even written yet!) doesn't enter into what Jesus promised to his disciples and to us?
All that rather strongly suggests that there is a serious fallacy at the heart of convenient idea of Sola Scriptura. And more than a little human pridefulness: who, precisely, is qualified to provide the definitive interpretation of difficult passages of Scripture?
But we already knew that: that particular idea is at the root of why there are so many thousands of different denominations and accusations of heresy.
That's not veneration. That's worship by any dictionary definition.
You've really been hitting the sacramental wine pretty heavy to come up with this one. Think about This: Destroy Catholicism? - you think that's what Protestants think about night and day? What they preach in the pulpit? Just how many times this year has your church been firebombed? None, huh? There are doctors that treat this kind of disorder and you might consider seeking some sort of help.
Good point. The only church I can think of lately that was firebombed was Sarah Palin’s church in Wasilla, Alaska last year.
But what do I know...that was just one of those pesky Bible Church’s.......
BipolarBob: - Think about This: Destroy Catholicism? - you think that's what Protestants think about ... What they preach in the pulpit? Just how many times this year has your church been firebombed?,
Leoni responds:
Brownsen says "destroy or elude Catholicity". Destroy does not necesarily mean to bomb buildings, it means destroy/eliminate/protestantize the religion, and elude means just what it says. Your comment is a strawman.
Hence the remark of Theodore Roosevelt to the effect that, "I believe it will be long and difficult to absorb these countries (South American) into the sphere of the United States as long as they remain Catholic."
“There are as many sects now and beliefs as there are heads. This fellow has nothing to do with baptism. Another one denies the sacraments. A third believes there is another world between this one and the last day. Some teach that Christ is not God. Some say this, some say that. There is no rustic so rude that if he dreams or fancies anything believes it must be the whisper of the Holy Spirit and that he himself must be a prophet.”
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