[Colofornian]

From the article: "People are hanging their faith on evidence of Book of Mormon peoples," Barney said.

And why not? If faith didn't have an actual landing place...for example, if somebody said the Son of God made a visit to earth somewhere in the Middle East, but never outlined where, how believable would that be?

Jesus born in Bethlethem vs. Jesus born somewhere out there???

From the article: Scott Gordon, president of FAIR..."We really don't care where he picks for his theory on where the Book of Mormon can take place," Gordon said.

(Oh, does that mean he can get out an entire map for South America, Central America, and North America, and play "Pin the tail on the donkey" blindfolded, and FAIR doesn't care??? Because there's no much Mormon authority contradictions and scant evidence...it doesn't really matter, anyway?)

Gordon of apologetics org FAIR, continuing: "What we care about that he is implying that the church is not following the teachings of Joseph Smith. Which means the church leadership, the prophet — everything is not following. And we think that is a very, very dangerous position."

Well, let's see. Smith seemed to point to Book of Mormon geography as landing somewhere in South America...and the Deseret News' host apologist, Michael Ash, along with BYU and the main Lds apologetics' folks have actually studied the Book of Mormon descriptions of lands, and realize how ludicrous Smith was to make such conclusions. But, they don't want to attack Joseph Smith. So they go after the people who quote him.

(That sounds like a common Mormon apologetic angle).

From the article: "They seem to be trying to elevate a question of lesser importance, Book of Mormon geography, to the level of the doctrines of the church," Roper said.

Can any of us imagine a Bible minus any definitive geography? What? They think an L. Ron Hubbard-style novel with sci-fi locales is just fine for presentation?

[Tennessee Nana]

My feeling is that Joseph Smith did not lie,” Porter said.
_________________________________________

Feelings, nothing more than feelings...
Feelings, down in my heart...

(and it burns so bad I need a TUMS)

[Graybeard58]

Joseph didn't just know; he knew everything.

I've known people like that.

[svcw]

Fight? What is there to fight about? There is not one shred of evidence to support JS claims.

[Graybeard58]

People are hanging their faith on evidence of Book of Mormon peoples," Barney said.

If they don't "hang their faith" on Jesus Christ, they are hell bound.

[Colofornian]

From the article: But something is rotten in Zarahemla — wherever it may be. In the middle of what could be a fun and intellectually exciting pursuit…there are accusations of disloyalty tantamount to apostasy. It wouldn't be hard to predict that some friction might come about from competing theories — that healthy sparring would occur with arguments and counter-arguments. But it has gone beyond that. The source of the animosity comes from the heartland theory's mantra: "Joseph knew." Joseph Smith made several statements that can be interpreted to have geographic implications. Proponents of a North American setting see these statements as authoritative and based in revelation. Mesoamerican theorists think that Joseph Smith's ideas about geography expanded over time and included approval of at least some connection to Central America. To the heartlander, Joseph's knowledge about Book of Mormon locations is seen as proof of his divine calling and a testament to his being the chosen ranslator/expert of the book…"The way I look at Joseph Smith's statements is that he either knew or he didn't know. If he knew, he knew by revelation. And if he didn't know, you've got to ask yourself why he said the things that he said," Porter said. "If he didn't know, was he trying to show off? If he really didn't know, why was he telling people?

If Smith didn’t know; and if he knew his followers interpreted what he said as coming from his god, then, indeed, why would Smith tell people he knew?

From the article: If you don't agree with this line of reasoning, by implication, you think that Joseph lied.

Lie? No, I’d say the BYU folks; the FAIR folks; the DesNews folks try to be “charitable” toward Joseph Smith and think he was “mistaken.” But if Smith knew his followers interpreted what he said as coming from God; and he opened his mouth on the subject, when in fact, he didn’t know…then Smith was still deceiving people – even if one is “charitable” and thinks Smith was mistaken…

Deception doesn’t always hinge on intentionality. Smith was still a deceiver no matter how you look at it…Because he knew how his statements would be taken…as authoritatively from God.

[ExtremeUnction]

Has the Mormon Church ever apologized for the 1857 Mountain Meadows Massacre?

[reaganaut]

Ahhh, the new tactics appears to be “It doesn’t really matter if the BoM has any proof (or even if it is false), Smith was STILL a prophet.

What they do not ‘get’ is that if Smith lied or conned about the BoM, then he probably lied

Mormonism is an ENTIRE package - History, doctrines, history of doctrines, pseudo-archaeology, crime, corruption, etc. They cannot separate those from their religion simply because they claim to be a ‘restored’ church - which means an entire denomination - that is the only one that has the truth. IOW, that Christ started a denomination. Either Smith was a prophet or he was a fraud. No way around that.

Christians, however, don’t have those issues. We recognize that our faith in Christ is separate from our ‘churches’.

[texas booster]

Hey, let me throw a t*rd in the punch bowl:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spalding–Rigdon_theory_of_Book_of_Mormon_authorship

The wiki is much more “balanced” than the study I learned many years ago. It is not surprising that a stolen manuscript would be different than existing manuscripts, but the book reads true.

[greyfoxx39]

""President Smith spoke briefly," the Deseret News account summarized, "and expressed the idea that the question of the city (of Zarahemla) was one of interest certainly, but if it could not be located the matter was not of vital importance, and if there were differences of opinion on the question it would not affect the salvation of the people; and he advised against students considering it of such vital importance as the principles of the Gospel."

Well, that pretty well sums up where the FR mormons are.

No matter how ridiculous the claim, how much is posted showing it unBiblical, we are supposed to join in the mindset that "it will not affect the salvation of the people" and allow the fallacies to be spread world-wide unanswered and unchallenged or be faced with charges of being "bigots" and "haters".

Not gonna happen.

[ThisLittleLightofMine]

“My feeling is that Joseph Smith did not lie,” Porter said.
__________________________________________________________

First problem. JS was a liar and if Mormons would actually critically look at the origin of their "church" they would have no choice but to get out.

[donozark]

So why is there scant commentary in your various posts about J. Smith’s time in Hickory Grove, Penn?
Let me re-phrase that....Why is so little written about that period of time? Circa 1820-25. A very interesting period in American History.
Much of the land near Hickory Grove was granted to vets of War of 1812. 160 acres each (IIRC)in “wilderness” of Penn.

[count-your-change]

If there’s no Land of Oz maybe there’s no Dorothy, Tin Man,
etc. As Jesus said, ‘He that is faithful in least is faithful in much’.

[Paragon Defender]

The president and prophet summed it up perfectly in the article: “President Smith spoke briefly,” the Deseret News account summarized, “and expressed the idea that the question of the city (of Zarahemla) was one of interest certainly, but if it could not be located the matter was not of vital importance, and if there were differences of opinion on the question it would not affect the salvation of the people; and he advised against students considering it of such vital importance as the principles of the Gospel.”

Personally I think it will eventually be shown that central America is where it all took place. /shrug But it really doesn’t matter on tiny bit.

[Godzilla]

From the article:"The way I look at Joseph Smith's statements is that he either knew or he didn't know. If he knew, he knew by revelation. And if he didn't know, you've got to ask yourself why he said the things that he said," Porter said. "If he didn't know, was he trying to show off? If he really didn't know, why was he telling people?
"My feeling is that Joseph Smith did not lie," Porter said.
If you don't agree with this line of reasoning, by implication, you think that Joseph lied.

This is really the crux of the debate. Smith made very specific claims and statements regarding the locations of some bom events - and they are not in central america. In fact, Meldrum's theory more closely matches the assumptions that smith altered his geography from local landmarks in the NY area in smith's time with followed by associted "altered" bom names

In fact, my first bom contained pictures of the great lake with a reference to the sea west and sea east.

[Vendome]

Prove it!

[John McDonnell]

Archaeological research in Central America has uncovered extensive evidence of former advanced civilizations. The land area of these advanced civilizations is called Mesoamerica. The Book of Mormon describes advanced civilizations, and the ones in Mesoamerica correspond in dating to those described in the Book of Mormon. Nowhere else on the American continents does an archaeological pattern show such similarities.

The reporting and interpreting of archaeological investigations lags behind the actual discoveries, and archaeologists are usually trying to find what they want to find, overlooking or ignoring what they do not wish to find. I have read the testimony of a Mesoamerican archaeologist who had an encounter with one of the three immortal Nephites mentioned in the Book of Mormon, on a mountain in Mexico that is the real Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon. He was told that the time had not yet come for the records in that mountain to be revealed.

The hill in New York where Moroni buried the gold plates that Joseph Smith would later translate by the power of God was falsely called Cumorah. None of the eight witnesses who handled and hefted those heavy gold plates realized that they had been produced in Mesoamerica in Central America, because the beginnings of archaeological research in that region had not yet been reported to them.

[John McDonnell]

http://www.hillcumorahexpeditionteam.com/index.html

[Colofornian]

Happy Flying Inman Remembrance Day!

Three years ago today, May 30, 2007, the “Flying Inman” designation was bestowed upon us. We honor three years’ of self-sacrificial service all day today!

(By designating today as Flying Inman Remembrance Day, we take nothing away from the brave men and women who serve us in our armed forces. They, in fact, flesh out what it means to engage in warfare. They give us a living word picture of what spiritual warfare is all about, even in victory. Our armed forces, when they defeated the Japanese and Germany, didn’t gloat over them...didn’t treat them beyond what justice deserved...and in fact, was merciful to the point of rebuilding their lives and economies. So, too, we celebrate our victory in Jesus Christ.)

We want to make it plain to those who follow Joseph Smith: YOU are not our enemies! YOU are our prize! We desire for you to accompany us to heaven!

We love Mormons. And I appreciate you Mormons who have sacrificed of your time to converse with us! Restornu, Saundra Duffy, Logophile, Normandy, Ripliancum, Reno232, the rest, we appreciate you!

We love you, often with a tough love, but yes, still a love. Aside from anything you DO, you are esteemed greatly in Heavenly Father's eyes. He loves you. He looks forward to a reconciliation, and a putting away of any barriers that may block the way.

Please understand while our skirmishes are with those who would lock you and others into legalism, our REAL battle isn't with flesh and blood at all. As aMorePerfectUnion indicated, spiritual forces undergird certain doctrines. That's why the apostle Paul, in writing to Timothy, mentioned "the doctrines of demons."

Those doctrines haven't remained in the ethereal floating around. They've been translated into false prophets' works and words.

We disagree on much. But relationships are important. And we want to honor you, by hearing you out, and by providing a platform for you to express your convictions. That's what a "Free Republic" is all about!

Finally, we thank Free Republic, JimRob and its moderators for the fine service they provide for America!

Colofornian

[John McDonnell]

This discussion prompted me to purchase a copy of Recent Book of Mormon Developments, volume 2, Zarahemla Research Foundation, 1992.

This book is loaded with information that probably none of the commentators on this thread are aware of. I remember that someone had mocked the frequent use of "and it came to pass" in the Book of Mormon. On page 132 of this book is this 1986 notice:

Mayan Glyphs Translated "It Came To Pass"

Two reports of Mayan glyphs translated to read "...it came to pass..." have come to our attention. The first report is from the 1985 Mayan Hieroglyphic Workshop at the University of Texas conducted by Linda Schele, a leading glyph expert. The workbook from the workshop lists several combinations of "it came to pass." The second report, in the March issue of Science 86 magazine ("The Lost Language of Coba" by Virginia Morell, p. 48), shows the drawing of a glyph on a Palenque tablet that David Stuart has translated to mean "it came to pass."

Besides this archaeological evidence, there has always existed a common sense explanation. "It came to pass" is not used when every detail in a narrative is being described. It is used to indicate a passage of time. The Book of Mormon summarizes a long and complex history, resulting in many narrative gaps that are indicated by "it came to pass".

[John McDonnell]

The fight over Book of Mormon geography is important. If the Book of Mormon is true, then there has to be a geographical area in which the Book of Mormon narrative is compatible with archeological findings. The Zarahemla Research Foundation is convinced that Mesoamerica is the area in which Book of Mormon peoples lived: