Posted on 05/25/2010 10:14:07 PM PDT by restornu
From the author of Yecheadquarters Creation
Osas, My story so far....
If you ever wondered what doctrine is right between osas and no-osas, then you have come to the right place. Don't think that because I will be supporting no-osas, that I will have a bias opinion. For I have been on both sides. I was born and raised a baptist. Grew up being taught osas. I never felt bad about it until one day my preacher preached on this subject, and what he said made me realize that this cannot be right. His sermon was based on never losing salvation. But he took it to an area of sin I knew was wrong. He made salvation sound like a ticket to sin.
Now this in itself did not convince me it was wrong. But it planted a seed for me to research it, and I have. A lot of my research involved debating this issue on forums with both osas and no-osas believers. At one point, which was the most confusing point of my life, I was about 50/50 on what to believe. After being frustrated for a while, I decided to go to the source and quit relying so much on doctrine, and what people are saying. Why? Man can take you only so far as truth is concerned. Only God can lead you the rest of the way to find absolute truth.
So I prayed and asked for wisdom about this. My journey was long with many events that were placed there to teach me how and why everything worked out the way that it did. For I can only pray and hope that what I have learned, I will be able to convey to an understanding of most who read this. Why is this so important to me? Because in my journey to learn the wisdom about this, I have also learned that this doctrine alone is destroying the faith of every Christian in such a slow death, most can't even detect it. You might be shocked to read that, because you may be one who believes this doctrine. But don't turn away just yet. For if I cannot convince you to read the rest of this section after reading the first page, then I have failed. So just bare with me while I try and make a point on why I believe this is destroying the Christian faith.
Losing the fear of God.....
I have found that the main thing that keeps me in-line is the fear of God. It keeps what I say and do in check. Problem is, what fear can you have when you cannot lose the ultimate goal as to why anyone would become a Christian?
If I cannot lose salvation:
1) Why should I ask forgiveness? 2) Why should I repent? 3) Why should I do any works for the kingdom of God?
For if you cannot lose salvation, then none of the above even applies. Why would God tell us to do something but then turn around and make it sound like none of it has to be done? It's like saying: You can drive the car all you want, but never put gas in it. Why? Because it's not needed. So why fear God enough to do what He has told us if we are not even going to be judged, or punished for not doing it. Does God speak worthless words? Is God's book a worthless book? If osas is believed, then 90% of God's word would have to be omitted to make it work. Because all punishment for sin has to be omitted.
Why obey the commandments?
In the osas belief, I have debated many. I have found that the ones who take it seriously also will tell you that the ten commandments no longer apply. Why? One verse says that we are no longer saved by the law, which is correct. But being saved by the law, and having to obey the law, are two separate subjects. So does the word of God actually make a mention that the ten commandments are no longer in affect as to following them?
jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my Commandments. (Jesus speaking)
The love doctrines....
There are many doctrines that teach the love of Christ only. Such as some that teach there is no hell. Could osas be a modified version of one of these doctrines? Think about it for a second. Step back from what you believe and just look at the facts....
Osas claims:
Osas says you cannot lose salvation. Salvation with no conditions. The love doctrines claim there is no hell. Salvation with no conditions. So both determine no hell.
So what makes these two different but yet the same? The love doctrine applies to all. Saved or unsaved. It asks the question: Why would a loving God send His children to hell, or the lake of fire? Sounds like a tempting doctrine to look into don't it? But that's how the Devil hooks you and reels you in. Temptation. How? If you could live the life you want, and still end up in heaven. Which life would you prefer? The life that says we have to obey all these laws about sin, or the one where you can do anything? The anything life always appeals to the flesh, and we are flesh...... So for me to even say that I would not want this would be a lie.
The osas doctrine does the same thing. But it only applies to one group. Get saved and be secure. Never lose salvation. Do you see how the temptation is there? Sin all you want, your secure, you can never fall out of His hands etc....
Exalting the flesh over the spirit.
A doctrine that makes something more appealing to the flesh is what? A temptation.
Does The word of God appeal to the flesh, or the spirit? The spirit. Because heaven is the goal of every person that accepts Christ.
The Osas doctrine makes salvation more appealing to the flesh. How? If there is no punishment for sin, then what wins in the end? Is it the temptation to sin, or feeling you need to repent of the sin? Christ did not die on the cross for a covenant that is more appealing to our fleshly temptation, then our Godly need to abstain, and repent of them.
The God complex...
But, osas also has it's own judgement rules. If someone in their group should actually deny Christ, and decide to live a sinners life. How do they answer this? Well, he or she was never truly saved if they did this.... Really? At what point do we gain enough wisdom to make the same judgements as God? To be able to say, with authority, that this person was not truly saved, is to have a God complex. There is only one being able to determine this, and it is not us.
So what does that statement, so often used by osas, reveal? That it is by man's own choice to not lose salvation that we become secure in it. And because we think and believe this, what we believe makes us judge others as if we were God ourselves. Because security of salvation is our choice, so the judgement of that security in others becomes our choice as well. Osas is setting the rules for salvation for themselves, so why not set it for others as well.
You were not truly saved because you strayed, rejected and denied Christ? If we were not able to sin upon being saved, then this would be true. But I see it no where written in God's word where it says that we can never reject Christ. Sounds like a God complex to me. Because if you can make that type of judgement on earth, then who will be on the throne when we get to heaven? This type of judgement of another brings God down to the level of man. And therefore God would not be worthy to set upon the throne if man has the same ability to judge as He does. To be able to judge another as if we were Gods, also brings pride. And where pride is, becoming humble is much harder to do.
AMPU, I have to disagree with you on this one. Mormonism is the original doctrine of demons, repackaged. It is nothing more than a rehash of Satan's deception with Eve: "you will be like God..." (Genesis 3:4).
This is really nit-picking on my part. I see doctrine of men as a twisting of God's truth or commands while I see doctrine of demons as a complete overthrow of God's truth. Mormonism falls into the latter category, not the former.
So do they bring our Lord down to the level of man, or raise themselves up to the level of God?
“This is really nit-picking on my part. I see doctrine of men as a twisting of God’s truth or commands while I see doctrine of demons as a complete overthrow of God’s truth. Mormonism falls into the latter category, not the former.”
Nah, I don’t think it is nit-picky. I just put it in BOTH
categories - DEMONIC AND sinful MAN stuff mixed in.
It certainly isn’t Christian.
Psst...Presbyterians. You forgot the Presbyterians.
Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.This verse is well suited for the OSAS debate. What is it that you accuse people of doing that causes them to lose their salvation?
>>> Psst...Presbyterians. You forgot the Presbyterians.
Really??? you sure about that?
That would be at least some comfort,
but I know very little about them.
Yes. See Chapter 17 of the Westminster Confession of Faith and the related questions in the Shorter and Larger Catechisms. Any church which claims reformed doctrine will hold to some form of the perseverance of the saints (although not the caricature of the doctrine which Restornu presented). Thus, all Presbyterian Churches, the Christian Reformed Churches, the Dutch Reformed Churches, the Reformed Evangelical Churches, etc. all hold to the doctrine of perseverance of the saints.
Excuse you me the have all have Calvin Tulip which 1 of the 5 points is OSAS!
which serveral anti have said they adhere 3 points of the tulip and one of them is OSAS!
“Excuse you me the have all have Calvin Tulip which 1 of the 5 points is OSAS!”
WHOA! Translation Please...
The de-mormonizer says,
“Excuse you and me Mr. Calvin Tulip! You have 5 points. I do not have any.”
So do they bring our Lord down to the level of man, or raise themselves up to the level of God?
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Both. They bring God down by saying He has not always been God but rather is an ‘exalted man’ who lived ‘mormonism’ in His ‘earthly existence’ and has a body of flesh and bones. Their God is not omnipotent (He cannot create but only organize matter), He is the physical father of Jesus (through sex with Mary), and He is still learning and progressing. Also, according to their “Book of Moses” God encourages lying and Jesus lied when He said the gates of Hell would not prevail against His church.
They bring man up by saying we can become morally perfect in this life (that is the goal), that we can work for our Salvation and that we can become Gods ourselves who will be worshiped and have worlds of our own.
I am sure there are other ways they do this and since it is late, I may be missing something so I have pinged Colofornian as well to this post.
If you would like, I can provide sources for all the above doctrines.
Wow. Thei religion almost sounds like science fiction.
Thei religion almost sounds like science fiction.
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The Mormon writers of Battlestar Galactica thought so. Most of the show is based on Mormon doctrine.
And I didn’t even include teachings of Joseph Smith that they have discarded like there are men on the moon and sun.
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