Posted on 05/09/2010 8:03:40 AM PDT by truthfinder9
The age of the earth and the universe is no longer disputed among most scientists. Science tells us the earth is ~4.5 x 10^9 years old. The universe is ~14 x 10^9 years old. There have been several Christian scientists who have attempted to propose theories and find "scientific" evidence that the earth is only 6,000 years old. All "evidence" for a recent creation of the earth is flawed in some way.
Hebrew Words
Literal translations of the Hebrew word, yom, like our English word "day," can refer to a 24 hour day, sunrise to sunset (12 hours), or a long, unspecified period of time (as in "the day of the dinosaurs"). The Hebrew word ereb, translated evening also means "sunset," "night" or "ending of the day." The Hebrew word boqer, translated morning, also means "sunrise," "coming of light," "beginning of the day," or "dawning," with possible metaphoric usage (1). Our English expression: "The dawning of an age" serves to illustrate this point. This expression in Hebrew could use the word, boqer, for dawning, which, in Genesis 1, is often translated morning.
Do all the instances of "morning" and evening" refer to a literal period of time? Here is an example from Moses:
In the morning it [grass] flourishes, and sprouts anew; Toward evening it fades, and withers away. (Psalm 90:6)
This verse refers to the life cycle of grass (compared to the short life span of humans). Obviously, the grass does not grow up in one morning and die by the same evening. The period of time refers to its birth (morning) and its death (evening) at least several weeks (if not months) later.
The first thing one notices when looking at Genesis 1 is the unusual construction surrounding the words morning and evening together with day. This combination is very rare, occurring only ten times in the Old Testament, six of which, of course, are in the Genesis creation account. The remaining four verses (NASB) are listed below:
1."This is the offering which Aaron and his sons are to present to the LORD on the day when he is anointed; the tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a regular grain offering, half of it in the morning and half of it in the evening." (Leviticus 6:20) 2.Now on the day that the tabernacle was erected the cloud covered the tabernacle, the tent of the testimony, and in the evening it was like the appearance of fire over the tabernacle, until morning. (Numbers 9:15) 3."For seven days no leaven shall be seen with you in all your territory, and none of the flesh which you sacrifice on the evening of the first day shall remain overnight until morning." (Deuteronomy 16:4) 4."And the vision of the evenings and mornings which has been told is true; but keep the vision secret, for it pertains to many days in the future." (Daniel 8:26) The first three verses obviously refer to 24 hour days, since this is readily apparent from the context. The fourth one refers to many evenings and mornings, which "pertains to many days in the future." This verse actually refers to events that are yet to happen, which is 3000 years of days from when it was originally written. One could easily say that these mornings and evenings represent thousands of years.
However, none of these verses have the form which is seen in the Genesis account. Let's look at the form of these "evenings and mornings:"
•And God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. (Genesis 1:5) •And God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day. (Genesis 1:8) •And there was evening and there was morning, a third day. (Genesis 1:13) •And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day. (Genesis 1:19) •And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day. (Genesis 1:23) •And God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. (Genesis 1:31) The actual number of words in Hebrew is much fewer than that of the English translations. The words "and there was" are not in the Hebrew, but added to make the English flow better. The actual translation is "evening and morning 'n' day." There is no way to discern from the context that the text is referring to 24 hour days.
How would God have changed the text if He intended it to indicate 24 hour days? If God were to have created in 24 hour days, I would have expected the Genesis text to have begun with a statement to the effect that "God did 'x' in the morning" and "God did 'y' in the evening," as opposed to the very unusual construction of telling all God did and then ending with both evening and morning side by side at the end of the "day." So, the order indicates the end (evening) of one day is followed by the dawning (morning) of the next day. In addition, one would expect that if God chose to create the world in a few days He would have indicated it was all created in a few days instead of one day (Genesis 2:4) (2). This verse indicates to me that the Genesis days are other than 12 or 24 hour periods of time.
Scripture Declares the Days to be Long
Specific biblical examples of evidence for long creation days include:
1.The "Day of the Lord" refers to a seven year period of time. 2.Genesis 2:4 refers to all 6 days of creation as one day, "This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven." 3.The seventh day of Genesis is not closed. In all other days, "there is the evening and the morning, the n day." 4.In the book of Hebrews, the author tells us to labor to enter into God's seventh day of rest. By any calculation, God's seventh day of rest has been at least 6,000 years long: For He has thus said somewhere concerning the seventh day, "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works"... Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall through following the same example of disobedience. (Hebrews 4:4-11) 5.The psalmist (Moses, the author of Genesis) says "For a thousand years in Thy sight are like yesterday when it passes by, or as a watch in the night." (Psalm 90:4). 6.The apostle Peter tells us with God "A thousand years is as one day" (2 Peter 3:8). 7.The third day must have been longer than 24-hours, since the text indicates a process that would take a year or longer. On this day, God allowed the land to produce vegetation, tress and fruit. The text specifically states that the land produced trees that bore fruit with seed in it (3). Any horticulturist knows that fruit-bearing trees requires several years to grow to produce fruit. However, the text states that the land produced these trees (indicating a natural process) and that it all occurred on the third day. Obviously, such a "day" could not have been only 24 hours long. 8.The events of the sixth day of creation require time beyond 24 hours. On this day, God created the mammals and mankind. He also planted a garden, watered it, let it grow, and put man in it, with instruction on its care and maintenance. Then God brought all the animals to Adam to be named. This job, in itself would take many days or weeks. Next, God put Adam to sleep and created Eve. It is very unlikely all of this could take place in 24 hours, since much of it was dependent upon Adam, who did not have the abilities of God. 9.The Bible itself states that the covenant and laws of God have been proclaimed to a "thousand generations" (Deuteronomy 7:9, 1 Chronicles 16:15, Psalm 105:8). Even if a generation is considered to be 20 years, this adds up to at least 20,000 years. A biblical generation is often described as being 40 years, which would represent at least 40,000 years. However, since the first dozen or more generations were nearly 1,000 years, this would make humans nearly 50,000 years old, which agrees very well with dates from paleontology and molecular biology (see Descent of Mankind Theory: Disproved by Molecular Biology).
Appearance of Age
If God had created the universe in an instant, there would be no evidence from nature that He created it. The Bible states God has shown himself to all men through His creation so that men are without excuse in rejecting God (6). In addition, the universe declares God's glory, which is a sum of God's innate and unchangeable character (7). The Bible also states the universe declares God's righteousness (8). God's righteousness prevents Him from sinning. The scriptures say God cannot lie (9).
Therefore, from the Bible, we conclude that God does not lie or deceive, either from His word or from His record of nature. The heavens declare the universe to be at least 10 billion years old. In addition, we have the ability to see galaxies in the universe which are billions of light years away. If one claims the universe is 6,000 years old, he must state that God created the light from these distant galaxies in transit less than 6,000 light years from the earth. There are signs that the light has indeed been in transit for very long periods of time and was not somehow created in space relatively recently. Frequencies of known spectral lines show spreading or broadening which would occur after long travel times through space containing dust and debris. Since this light appears to be very old and to have originated from a point billions of light years away, if the universe is actually 6,000 years old, the heavens must be declaring a lie, an apparently old universe which is actually very young.
Let me give one example. For now let us assume the universe is 6 to 10 thousand years old and God created the light-beams already in place. Say we are watching a star in our telescope which is two million light years away, and we notice that it explodes (yes, supernova explosions have been observed). That means the light reaching us now is carrying the information recording this distant happening. Now trace this part of the light beam backwards in time along the path of the light beam. By the time you get back to the time of creation (6 to 10 thousand years ago) you have reached a point which is less than 1 percent of the distance to the star. This would mean that the "explosion" part of the light-beam began its journey from here - and not from the star! Thus, the information recording this explosion had to be "built-in" to the light beam, so what we see as having happened to that star may never have happened at all. The idea that observation of things further than around 10,000 light-years away is not necessarily linked to physical reality would be unsettling from both a scientific and theological viewpoint. I cannot accept a God who lies by creating deceptions.
Appearance of Age Rebuttals
Many have asked the following question: Since God probably created Adam full grown and mature why couldn't God have done the same thing with the universe? First, note that God had a choice of creating Adam adult sized, or as a baby. Obviously if Adam was created as a baby, God would have to provide a means of nurturing him. This would require some special agency or being, or God could have made Adam a very special baby who did not require special care. Although God could have done any of these things, we believe God operates according to the principle of simplicity. Thus, He simply created the first man full-sized. However, Adam's body did not necessarily have signs of age. Size by itself is not an indication of age except perhaps to tell that the person is not a child. If a doctor examines an adult to determine age he might look at skin condition, liver spot progression, hair, teeth, cholesterol level, metabolism, scars, etc. I believe that Adam's body had none of these signs of age. God created Adam sinless, with no spiritual deterioration, and I believe He also created Adam with a perfect body, with no physical deterioration. Thus I do not believe Adam had an "apparent age."
Other arguments often used to support the appearance of age argument is the wine that Jesus made from water. It was the best wine, implying that it was aged. However, the wine may or may not have had the chemical components of aged wine.
Ultimately, the downfall of the appearance of age argument is that the Bible never supports this idea with regard to the creation. The Bible explains the miracles of God and tells us when things were made as if they were old (like the wine that Jesus made from water). In contrast, there is not one verse in the Bible that suggests that God made the Earth look older than it actually is.
“I like th fact that you say you believe, not that you know.”
I’ve always figured that anyone that says that they “know” when it comes to this subject is either lying or not being logical.
I don’t think I saw that argument made.
That must mean both world wars happened just because you weren’t born yet.
>A bigger problem would be of 6+ billion individuals descending out of one mating pair, primarily through incest, initially.
I’m not sure about that; consider that Adam and Eve were meant to be immortal {death was NOT part of their design and came into being from original sin}: this indicates that, biologically-speaking, they were FAR superior to any human living today as they had NO genetic defects at all.
>Such a model would develop so many genetic abnormalities in less than a dozen generations, humans would have been extinct a long time ago.
Consider that DNA is self-correcting to an AMAZING degree; even a genetically poor parent can have a healthy offspring [though there ARE recessive genes to consider].
It makes sense that the self-repair mechanism would have to be damaged or impaired before significant ‘inbreeding abnormalities’ presented themselves.
You can start a stable breeding population of bovine livestock from a surprisingly small number with animal husbandry techniques. (Which, I believe, was why seven pairs of clean animals were taken on the Ark.)
>Then we have the problem of humanoids / Neanderthals, etc.
I’m not sure that _IS_ a problem; the human race is surprisingly diverse in appearance/features and we have seen [in recorded history] instances of environmental impacts on the physical bodies of people [malnutrition, for instance]as well as physical oddities caused by defect/disease: the Elephant Man, for example.
Well spoken.
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Very interesting, OneWingedShark. I immediately thought of Psalm 104:
[1] Bless the LORD, O my soul!
O LORD my God, thou art very great!
Thou art clothed with honor and majesty,
[2] who coverest thyself with light as with a garment,
who hast stretched out the heavens like a tent
Thanks for giving me some food for thought! :)
Because of logic...Is there something about what I wrote that confuses you?
OK, I'm sorry. I see where you're coming from. I meant to write God COULD mean these things both...
The whole point is both would be true no matter what God meant.
You are right. Not one bug stepped on in six days. Sheesh.
Stepped on by what? The land animals and man were created on day six so at best your issue is that a bug cannot avoid being stepped on for part of a day...I know of bugs that can avoid being killed when a person is trying to kill them.
I would agree.
No, I just don’t understand how you can actually know what God means, using simple human logic. How do you verify that you are correct in knowing what God means?
So do you believe there were approximately 2000 years from Adam to Noah...were those real “years” in the Genesis genealogies?
They tore him down(crucified), and he was rebuilt in three days(resurrected).
“Good” doesn’t mean “perfect.” In fact no where does it say God made a world of perfection. The YEC belief that God made a “perfect” world and that man/satan came along and blindsided Him, forcing Him to resort to “Plan B” is a serious theological nightmare. According to the YEC reasoning, God was fooled and had to start over.
Sorry, the Exodus 11 argument doesn’t hold water: What of Leviticus 25:1-4, which uses the creation week pattern in terms of years? The creation week is used as a pattern of “one out of seven” in both cases, not a real-time reference. See also the eight day “Feast of the Tabernacles” in Leviticus 23:33-36 that celebrated God’s protection in the desert that lasted forty years — obviously eight days is not a one-to-one correlation with forty years.
Either God created the universe, or He didn’t. So how can His Truth in Creation not be as valid as Truth in the Bible? YECs claim God created everything, but think we can only divine things from it only when convienent to them.
YECism is wrought with problems, but its adherents are taught not to test anything they are told. Every one of your points are popular YEC talking-points that don’t hold up under a few moments of scruitiny.
No. And in fact, as students of Hebrew culture and language know, those ancient geneologies are intentionally incomplete.
Nice try, but you guys should really stop using this one. The Exodus 11 argument doesn’t hold water: What of Leviticus 25:1-4, which uses the creation week pattern in terms of years? The creation week is used as a pattern of “one out of seven” in both cases, not a real-time reference. See also the eight day “Feast of the Tabernacles” in Leviticus 23:33-36 that celebrated God’s protection in the desert that lasted forty years — obviously eight days is not a one-to-one correlation with forty years.
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