Posted on 05/09/2010 8:03:40 AM PDT by truthfinder9
I could not agree less. The more we learn about DNA the more we see how the infant creation process attempts to de-select for all mutations. Now I’m not saying that no mutations survive in the new creation but even after that there are still many more coping mechanisms to work around these problems.
Too bad you accept so much of what you read and hear about evolution so blindly. It is obvious that you continue to dismiss the opposition as if we have no brains and ignore loads of contrary research in the process.
See creationscience.com if you want to see what a former evolutionary scientist has been saying for decades. Or try some or all of the links on my FR homepage.
I’ll take the time to go through them. Meanwhile:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100512131513.htm
“The researchers found that what previously had been identified as remnants of blood cells, because of the presence of iron, were actually structures called framboids, microscopic mineral spheres bearing iron. They found similar spheres in a variety of other fossils from various time periods, including an extinct sea creature called an ammonite. In the ammonite they found the spheres in a place where the iron they contain could not have had any relationship to the presence of blood.”
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080729234140.htm
No, explaining why doesn't substantiate anything. It affirms the basis on which you place your belief. So, you are essentially saying whatever YOU feel is why you believe? You make up your own theory based solely on your feeling, and also derived this belief from a total lack of empirical evidence to show otherwise. I understand this.
Do you discount the history, and eye witness accounts (Bible) of how God explains things? God never intones he gives individuals different truth, so I'm concluding you think the biblical account is wrong?
If you ask me, affirmation and substantiation are close enough to mean pretty much the same.
I’m glad you undestand.
No I don’t discount them and I don’t think the bible is wrong, because to those that believe the bible is the infallible word of God, that is enough. I don’t believe the same.
Right, but this does not change the reality of whether or not the bible is true. Just because you believe differently does not change the inherent state. This is where logically your premise falls completely apart. The word of God is either reality (true) for all, or it's deception for all. The only conclusion I can draw from this discussion is your definition of "truth" is skewed.
If you actually think reality is different for some based on their belief (subjective) you have entered into the realm of pure nonsense.
I agree it doesn’t change the reality, but since we don’t know whether the bible is true in all things or not (that is where the faith part comes in), it’s moot.
Ok, thanks for clearing that up because I was beginning to think you thought God gives people different "realities," which translate to truth.
I have to have faith to believe the whole bible is true, but I do so based on some pretty strong evidence. If you are intellectually honest, you would have to conclude God's word is established as authentic in the biblical account.
Do you know about Genesis 5?
When speaking of God and spiritual matters, I do believe God gives different truths to us individually. You may call them realities if you wish, or translate them to whatever you want. Why do you believe spiritual truths or realities cannot differ for each person?
No I don’t have to conclude that. There are at least a couple things that are questionable in the bible which cannot be authenticated, but rely solely on leaps of faith. Some people are capable of these leaps and some are not...some people have this spritual reality/truth, some have that spiritual reality/truth.
Well, you're going to have to give me an example, even if you have to make it up, because this statement on the surface is ridiculous. I want to answer your question but it sounds so convoluted I don't know how? A reality is a truth for everyone, whether or not individuals choose to believe it is the difference. Is that what you're talking about?
Right! There are no doubt events, actions, situations in the bible which are questionable, however, there is also strong enough evidence to conclude God is who he says he is. Such as the Genesis 5 evidence. Fulfilling just 8 prophecies alone goes beyond the scientific realm of what is considered improbable. One thing I can think of right off the bat which requires faith is Mary's pregnancy as a virgin. How would one reconcile this claim?
Best and only example is what I’ve been saying. I’ve already explained that I cannot substantiate this, as it is a self-evidential belief. Sorry, but there’s just no way to prove or disprove this.
I understand you do not know how to answer the question. No problem.
Obviously, I do not believe that any one spiritual reality is a truth for everyone. I’ve also said that a number of times.
There probably is a biological scenario that would allow for the appearance of a virgin birth, but I do not believe in a man coming back from the dead. Since I do not believe in the concept of sin as a transgression against God, I do not believe that any sins have been forgiven, ie a need for salvation. I don’t know how these would be substantiated, they have to be pure leaps of faith for those that do believe in sinning against God. As I’ve also said, some people can make that leap while others cannot...that is a reality/truth.
Your statements are sounding like, whatever one believes is "truth." That's ludicrous! This is why I made the statement I believe your definition of "TRUTH" is skewed. You're talking about "belief," not truth.
You believe truth is subjective. In the example of the holocaust deniers they believe a lie, not reality, not truth, however, by the way you are using the word "truth" the deniers have their own "truth" which just because they "believe" nothing happened their "truth" is just as valid. That's sick logic.
As I’ve also said, some people can make that leap while others cannot...that is a reality/truth.
No! Are we arguing different things here?
Belief does not make reality. The Virgin birth either was reality or a lie. A belief/non-belief in it makes it neither real or imagined.
Not whatever, I’ve said spiritual truth a number of times, not just truth. Keep that straight, otherwise you’ll get it all wrong.
Please substitute spritual truth for belief or vice versa if that would be better. To me, the truth you speak of is the same as a belief, mainly because it is subjective and solely dependent on what you believe. Obviously then, I believe spiritual truths/beliefs are subjective and the same.
And what does the holocaust have to do with anything I’ve said? Did you just stick it into the conversation so you could use the word ‘denier’?
No, it is true, some people can make that leap of faith and some cannot.
Remember, spiritual truth/belief...not physical like the virgin birth or an event or the like which can be measured, viewed, experienced by more than one, etc. Of course that either happened or didn’t, but I don’t believe physical truths are the same as spiritual truths.
No, truth not subjective. Belief is not the same thing as truth. Because people "believe" in LIES all the time! That's why I'm pointing out how convoluted your point seems to be. Truth is truth, it does not inhabit separate realms!
Look, we're discussing whether or not God exist and whether the biblical account of his supposed existence is accurate. The reality is today there is no empirical evidence to PROVE God. (Which I know of) If you want to remain steadfast in your quest to find proof, I'm with you all way...however you know the case, and if you chose to search outside the parameters then a lost cause just might be your only outcome.
Open the eyes of my heart, Lord...
Yes, spiritual truth subjective.
I think belief and truth are the same thing when it is applied to spiritual things. Which is what we are talking about...or at least I am, and what I’ve been saying a number of times.
A non-spiritual lie can be shown to be a lie, can’t it? An event either happened or didn’t. Can you show that a spiritual belief/truth is a lie or not? Just as a fun example...can you honestly show that when a viking dies, he did or did not go to Valhalla? Can you show that there is no happy hunting ground? Can you show that there is or isn’t 70 virgins for Muslims? Can you show or not show that man’s sins have or haven’t been forgiven? Can you show any of these to be lies or truths, without referencing a tome, ballad, scripture or something created by man?
I’m not discussing whether or not God exists, I believe He does. I’m also not looking for any proof of anything. I’m just answering your questions that you have asked about my belief that God instills His truth into each of on an individual basis.
I don’t believe there are any real all-encompassing, universal parameters when discussing spiritual matters outside one’s own belief set. Those parameters are set by your beliefs/truths. That is why I said the truth you speak of is subjective. You make it subjective to certain parameters. Your parameters do not apply to all.
As I said, words mean things and "Truth" is not subjective no matter how you want to spin it.
I don't why I wrote this after you explained you were referring too "Spiritual Truth." I agree SP is highly subjective. I was trying to state the difference between SP and Truth and totally Foobarred my intent. I don't think you were trying to "spin" anything.
Just because they appear to man to be contradictory, doesn’t mean they are. After all, no one really knows what God is capable of, do they? You don’t really have to, or even think you can, understand everything He does do you?
Oh please!! C'mon, you are not going to go there are you? Jesus CLEARLY, UNEQUIVOCALLY states HE is I Am. Even answers in the affirmative when questioned. Jesus could not get more genuinely contradictory if he wanted too. Jesus claims to be God, and Muslims claim he is just a prophet, a teacher! Who do you think Jewish Rabbi's think Jesus is? Certainly NOT the Messiah. One thing God CAN NOT do is lie!
Of course we can not comprehend everything God does, but he does tell us "to search the scriptures" so we can understand what he intends for mankind to understand. He gives us free will for a purpose...
I’m sure you believe that, myself and millions of others throughout history haven’t/don’t though. True, Jesus may have and probably did say everything you mentioned and more, but that doesn’t make it valid for everyone. Remember when you said...’just because you believe something, doesn’t make it true’... I guess that applies here also. I’ve never said God lies and I don’t think He does. Who could be worthy of His lie anyway? I’ve said I believe that He gives different information to different people.
Again, as I implied before, you have taken a leap of faith or you were born that way, or for whatever reason, that allows you to believe as you do and you need or use some form of reference for that. Unfortunately, your form of reference also requires a leap of faith to believe that it is sufficient as a reference for everyone. Obviously, it isn’t sufficient for everyone, because mankind is old, and we still don’t agree.
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