...one other thought, if your “polygamist” ancestor is so odious to you .... than why would you belong to a religion which worships the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (two of the three are known polygamists).
Also, your comments were disingenuous, please show me where the LDS church accuses ALL Christians of being apostates? Did I miss that in Sunday School class?
I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the otherThis is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, Never mind, all is wellI am well enough off. I then said to my mother,
Joseph Smith continues: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses, 18:172).President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127).James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196).
You know, you have to prove someone wrong before you start in on character assassination. You can't just go around, hurling invectives at people, accusing them.
...please show me where the LDS church accuses ALL Christians of being apostates? Did I miss that in Sunday School class?
Now. Your assumption is that I'm "disengenous" (a politer way of calling me an outright liar). And why? Well, I won't accuse you of missing Sunday School class, because I realize Lds leaders often patronize their grassroots members and withhold what they deem as "meat" from them.
I could give you a NUMBER of citations. But let's just go with three right now in the interest of time. The question on the floor is, "Where does the LDS church accuse ALL Christians of being apostates?"
...many Christians reject the idea of a tangible, personal God and a Godhead of three separate beings. They believe that God is a spirit and that the Godhead is only one God. In our view, these concepts are evidence of the falling away we call the Great Apostasy" (Lds current apostle Dallin H. Oaks, Apostasy and Restoration, Ensign magazine, the OFFICIAL publication of the Mormon Church, Conference edition, May 1995, p. 84)
Question, and I expect a direct response: Were you THERE at the the April 1995 General Conference? If so, did you take notes?
"IN short, apostasy reigned supreme; it was universal, complete, all pervading. The religion of the lowly Nazarene was no where to be found. ALL SECTS, PARTIES AND DENOMINATIONS HAD GONE ASTRAY. Satan rejoiced and his angles laughed." (Lds apostle Bruce R. McConkie, "Once or Twice in a Thousand Years," Ensign magazine, OFFICIAL publication of the Mormon church, April 2005, p. 56 Reprinted Conference address).
Question, and I expect a direct response: Were you THERE at the the April 2005 General Conference? If so, did you take notes?
"This same course--for Lucifer has no new ideas, but merely applies what he already knows to new situations--has been followed in apostate Christendom. When there were no longer apostles and inspired men to give the Lord's message and word to living men, the world turned to interpreters--to scholars, to doctors of divinity, to theologians, to professors of religion-to set forth what they thought or imagined the divine word of former days meant. In the opening of our dispensation the Lord, after saying that the creeds of Christendom were 'an abomination in his sight...thens aid that 'those professors' (meaning all who...had by their interpretations and teachings perverted the truth and made it of none effect) 'were all corrupt.'" (Lds apostle Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah: From Bethlehem to Calvary, vol. 1, p. 251)
As you can see in this last quote, McConkie references this all as present tense..."has been followed in apostate Christendom" is a present-tense description of Christians in our generation.
Can I have yet another apology from you?
I guess my first comment to you on this one -- did you ask this same Q of Mitt Romney when three years ago this very month, he said: "I have a great-great grandfather. They were trying to build a generation out there in the desert. And so he took additional wives as he was told to do. And I must admit, I can't imagine anything more awful than polygamy."
Source: Romney Slams Mormon Church's Past Practice
Is this why Utah Mormons tolerate polygamy by the fLDS? Because it's not apparently "odious" to you? And why did you raise this Q of me, when if you didn't ask it of Romney, means you hypocritically let Mormons slide by who have the same opinion as I do?
As for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...the Bible says Isaac had one wife...it was Smith who claimed otherwise.
As for Jacob: Exactly half of the women who bore children to Jacob were concubines--slave women (Gen. 29:29; 35:22). Gen 35:22 shows us that even Jacob's adult son, Reuben, slept with one of these women, Bilhah. (Or are you gonna tell us that since Jacob's son slept with her, she was just the "family" plural wife for any adult male to sleep with...and that this was "righteous" behavior) Jacob intended one wife, Rachel. Deception, not God, was the author of Leah becoming his wife. And, having, slept with her, in that culture you just didn't throw a mature no-longer-virgin fish back into the pool. (So God is the author of deception in your eyes?)
That leaves Abraham. Abraham indeed took a second wife, Keturah, but did so AFTER Sarah's death (Gen. 25:1). But what about Hagar, you may ask?
Did not Abraham sleep with her and bear a son? (Yes he did). But did you not know that Hagar was also a servant -- and not even Abraham's servant, but his wife, Sarai's? Sarai alone told her to sleep with Abraham, and so Abraham slept with "the help."
Did Abraham ever reference her as his wife? (no)
How about the angel who appeared to Hagar? (No, he referenced Sarai as "her mistress")
What about Moses, who wrote about her in Gen. 21? (No)
What about the apostle Paul in Gal. 4:21-31? (No)
What about Hagar herself? Did she, in her conversation with the angel of the Lord, call herself the "wife" of Abraham? (No)
That means Sarai and Sarai alone called her a "wife." Yet, for all we know, Abraham may have slept with Hagar only once. And Hagar, having been told by her "master" -- the Bible uses the word "mistress" to describe a female master -- had no righs to object.
Are you now telling us -- you who have lived in a male patriarch Mormon culture -- that women like Sarai would have authority to authorize the institution of polygamy? (Her & Rachel & Leah) Really?
The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob objected to polygamy (see Deut. 17:17; Lev. 18:18) Therefore, why don't you?
Pay them no mind teppe they have nothing but short term memory or are out right liars!
Whatever was said in the 1800’s is nothing compared to how the mainstream faiths treated each other since the time of the Reformation down through the ages the infighting among each other as they broke off into many denominations!
Somehow they keep forgetting that in families there were fighting among each other about religion.
Then came a time religion in the mainstream was lukewarm now it is warm again but mainstream had been through many cycles