To Those Who Are Investigating "Mormonism" Part Two

some still held on to views after all those were converts from the mainstream faith

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As I pointed out, it was Smith and the other leaders/prophets, not the lowly European converts.

So you are admitting Smith, Young et al were anti-Catholic bigots?

Good first step.

Well I never heard it said in the Church and my ward was well attended from all over the world!

You have not been around to grow how do I know what your bagage was when you were a member!

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YOU ARE KIDDING, RIGHT??

I’m not the one with baggage. In fact, Roger Keller (BYU PROF) and I got into a fight in his American Religions class because I DEFENDED THE CATHOLIC CHURCH and corrected the LIES HE WAS TELLING ABOUT THE CATHOLICS.

I have never been anti-Catholic, I attended Catholic school as a child and know a lot about the Catholic church. I was appalled at the anti-Catholicism I saw in Mormonism.

And I find it amusing you state I ‘wasn’t around to grow’, whatever that means.

As I’ve noted in other writings, the Church was not restored in a cultural vacuum.

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Then it isn’t a ‘restoration’ at all. God would know better than to allow such bigotry and lies into the ‘restored’ church.

Remember they can use the JoD to defend but dismiss it when it doesn’t agree with their opinion du jour.

I heard it in Sacrament, Sunday School, RS in all 4 wards and at BYU, in conference talks, and in LDS books.

Seems like I paid more attention than you have.

How do we know what your bagage is now you are ???

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Nana, you need a break, you are starting to type like our dear Resty.

I watch in amazement at how you perform these little snippets as through they are of great significant...

When in the end it is build upon distorted personal bias!

Thanks for remembering and I said they were the Lord’s Children and reaganuat try to smear my sincere statement.

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Attributing motives, Resty. Shame.

Second, I should have been pinged to this since I am mentioned.

Third, it doesn’t matter if your statement was sincere or not, it is NOT IN ACCORDANCE WITH LDS TEACHINGS, you ‘apostate’ you!

Somehow it seems you cannot distinguish or have a hart time to understand between a personal speculation aka even opinion from what is scripture.

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So it is only ‘scripture’ when it agrees with the opinion du jour from SLC and not any other time?

Interesting...

Proves there is absolutely NO POINT in having ‘modern revelation’ if it is only a person’s ‘opinion’ and can be tossed aside by any single member that doesn’t like it.

I guess the ‘gay mormons’ can throw out the ‘opinions’ by the leaders about homosexuality as well.

discourse=sermons and sermons by the prophet are scripture.

get out while you can, resty.

They are significant. I am not the one who belongs to a church that holds anti-catholic bigotry, you are.

The ‘personal bias’ was Smith’s and Young’s and Pratt’s and...so on and so forth.

Don’t try to defend the indefensible. The LDS church is indefensible.

Yeah I need somne COFFEE

:)

Well I grew up in Michigan and people were always arguing over religion.

One of the reasons my folks never attended church because they did not want to be among people like that!

My folks were mixed religion and got along just find on their own they strive to live the commandments and let the family members fight it out among themselves as well as I witness those in school and community being unkind to one another over religion.

Also in the older movies it was also protrayed the rift that the protestants and Catholics had between each others.

Protestants always fun over praying to statues and the Eucharist and preachers on the radio calling them Whores of Babylon.

I think the Pentecostals still do!

3. And What About Hagee’s Anti-Catholicism?

Anti-Catholicism is so pervasive among Pentecostals/charismatics like Hagee, says Shayne Lee, sociologist at Tulane University and author of T.D. Jakes: America’s Preacher, that it is “very normal to hear anti-Catholic rhetoric” at church. Lee, who not only studies the movement but experienced it first-hand growing up Pentecostal, said that many Pentecostals and charismatics don’t believe Catholics are even real Christians. “The charismatic movement goes against formalism in general. Religiosity, they call it,” Lee says. Because Pentecostals and charismatics emphasize their personal relationship with Jesus and the gifts of the holy spirit (such as being filled with the holy ghost, speaking in tongues, prophecy, and faith-healing) Catholic emphasis on rituals is suspect. “The fact that they’re baptized at birth rather than making a conscious decision to serve Christ [is] one of the main reasons why they’re challenged,” Lee says. Charismatics choose baptism, and therefore believe they chose their walk with Jesus and doubt Catholics’ personal experience with Christ.

As for Hagee’s “great whore statement,” Lee says that “for years, Pentecostals and charismatics have been suggesting or alluding to, some even explicitly saying that the Pope was the antichrist ... I would say this is a 20th century phenomenon, with fundamentalists and charismatics and Pentecostals ... it’s believable to a lot of charismatics, because they see it as a big, powerful institution of religion, but no relationship [with Jesus].”

you are a good story teller but I know better nice try anyways!

The anti-Catholic doctrines of mormonism started back with Joey smith and his original visions...

“I was answered that I must join none of them (Christian churches), for they were all wrong…their creeds were an abomination in [God’s] sight; that those professors were all corrupt” (Joseph Smith—History 1:19).

“The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church, is the great corrupt, ecclesiastical power, represented by great Babylon” (Orson Pratt, Writings of an Apostle, Orson Pratt, n. 6, 84 Mormon Apostle).

Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt wrote: “The gates of hell have prevailed and will continue to prevail over the Catholic Mother of Harlots, and over all her Protestant Daughters;...the apostate Catholic church, with all her popes and bishops, together with all her harlot daughters shall be hurled down to hell...” (Pamphlets by Orson Pratt, p. 112).

[Under the heading, “Church of the Devil,” Apostle Bruce R. McConkie lists:] “The Roman Catholic Church specifically—singled out, set apart, described, and designated as being ‘most abominable above all other churches’ (I Ne. 13:5)” (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, 129).

No stories, just sources. Smith was anti-Christian and specifically anti-Catholic (which would make sense because of his masonic connections).

3. The Church has a history of identifying the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church.

“The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters. Alas! alas! what doctrine, what principle, or what scheme, in all, what prayers, what devotion, or what faith, `since the fathers have fallen asleep,’ has opened the heavens; has brought men into the presence of God; and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to an innumerable company of angels? The answer is, not any: `There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one.’
- Apostle John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811

“Babylon, literally understood, is the gay world; spiritual wickedness, the golden city, and the glory of the world, The priests of Egypt, who received a portion gratis from Pharaoh; the priests of Baal, and the Pharisees, and Sadducees, with their “long robes,” among the Jews, are equally included in their mother’s family, with the Roman Catholics, Protestants, and all that have not had the keys of the kingdom and power thereof, according to the ordinances of God.”
- Prophet John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.939

“Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the “whore of Babylon” whom the Lord denounces... as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. If any penitent believer desires to obtain forgiveness of sins through baptism, let him beware of having any thing to do with the churches of apostate Christendom, lest he perish in the awful plagues and judgments, denounced against them. The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints. Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830, there have been no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospel ordinances. We again repeat. Beware of the hypocritical false teachers and imposters of Babylon!
- Apostle Orson Pratt The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255

“A great portion of the oriental country has been preserved from the grossest idolatry, wickedness, confusion, bloodshed, murders, cruelty, and errors in religion that have overspread the rest of the world, under the name of Christianity, or mystery of iniquity. An open defiance of God is no mystery; open drunkenness, and revelling debauchery, and all manner of wickedness and immorality professed by sinners who profess to be nothing else, are no mystery; they do not deceive anybody; but when all manner of wickedness, idolatry, drunkenness, and corruption is cloaked under a sacred name, under an outward sanctity and holiness, and under as high and dignified an appellation as Christian, it is a mystery of iniquity; and that has overspread a great portion of the world, and has borne rule until the present day, sometimes under the name of Roman universality, sometimes under the name of the Greek Church, and at other times under various classes and names.”

“Many that were honest have been deceived by this mystery of iniquity, who have esteemed things to be sacred, which were abominably corrupt; and corrupt superstitions have been revered because of the great names and sanctified professions that were attached to them. If such institutions actually professed wickedness, they would go for what they were worth; but when a thing professes to be holy, and takes the name of Christ as its founder, and the holy Prophets and Apostles, to carry out all manner of oppression, all manner of idolatry and idol worship, all manner of priestcraft and kingcraft, and more or less instigating division among nations and governments, all to carry out bloodshed, cruelty, the rack, the inquisition, and holding of men in bondage, ruling them with a red of iron, it is a mystery of iniquity calculated to deceive millions.”

“But returning to the general corruption that has prevailed nationally, politically, and religiously, under the name of Christianity, leaving out Christ and his Apostles, I do think there has been no idolatry in the world, under any form or system, that could surpass it. It is the mystery of iniquity, the great whore of all the earth. It has brought the whole earth under a lasting curse, having departed from the laws of God, changed the ordinances, and broken the everlasting covenant, in consequence of which the earth is destined to be burned, and few men left.”
- Apostle Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p.41

“How long has this order of things existed, this dreadful apostacy, this class of people that pronounced themselves Zion, or Christians, without any of the characteristics of Zion? It has existed for some sixteen or seventeen centuries. It has spread itself and grown and gone into the four quarters of the earth. It is the great ecclesiastical power that is spoken of by the revelator John, and called by him the most corrupt and most wicked of all the powers of the earth, under the name of spiritual Babylon, or in other words Babel, which signifies confusion. This great and corrupt power is also represented by John as presenting a golden cup to the nations, full of all manner of filthiness and abominations.”

“She is termed, in other places, by the same prophet, “The whore of all the earth,” making the nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Some three centuries ago there came out sortie excellent men, named Martin Lather, John Calvin and many others that might be mentioned, who protested against the wickedness and abominations of the Church wherein they had been educated, and of which they had been members. Because of their protestations against the mother Church they were called Protestants. They pronounced her the whore of all the earth; they declared that she had no authority, that she had none of the blessings and gifts which characterized the ancient Christians. They came out and established other Churches... But among all these Churches where are the characteristics of Zion? We hunt for them in vain.”
- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, p.346

“Thrones shall be cast down, and the Ancient of Days shall sit, and the body of the fourth beast (or Babylon) shall be given to the devouring flame, and then shall the remnant of the heathen know that the Lord is God, for they shall see and hear of his judgments, which he shall execute upon the corrupt powers of the earth under the name of modern Christianity, scripturally called “Babylon the Great”—”The whore of all the earth,” with whom the nations for centuries have committed fornication, and have drank out of her filthy cup. O Babylon! thou hast decked thyself with costly ornaments! Thou has clothed thyself with the most gaudy apparel! Thy seminaries of learning, and thy theological institutions have been multiplied far and wide. Thy priests are polished with all the refinements of a profound and extensive education. Thy costly and magnificent churches have been erected in great numbers throughout all thy borders. The merchants of the earth have made themselves rich through the abundance of thy luxuries. The learned—the great—the mighty—the kings of the earth, have glorified themselves in thy grand and superb palaces. Thou hast indeed enrobed thyself in the royal splendors of a queen. Thine external appearance has excited the admiration of all nations. But internally thou art rotten with the filth of thy whoredoms.”
- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Essential Orson Pratt, p.109

“The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church is the great corrupt ecclesiastic power, represented by great Babylon which has made all nations drunk with her wickedness, and she must fall, after she has been warned with the sound of the everlasting gospel. Her overthrow will be by a series of the most terrible judgments which will quickly succeed each other, and sweep over the nations where she has her dominion, and at last she will be utterly burned by fire, for thus hath the Lord spoken. Great, and fearful, and most terrible judgments are decreed upon these corrupt powers, the nations of modern Christendom; for strong is the Lord God who shall execute His fierce wrath upon them, and He will not cease until He has made a full end, and until their names be blotted out from under heaven.”
- Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.84 - p.85

In that context, here’s what the Book of Mormon says:

1 Nephi 13:5-6:
And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity. And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.

1 Nephi 13:8:
And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church.

1 Nephi 13:26:
And after they [the prophecies and testimonies of the Bible] go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

1 Nephi 13:28:
Wherefore, thou seest that after the book [the Bible] hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

1 Nephi 13:34:
...the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb [Bible] which have been kept back by that abominable church, which is the mother of harlots, saith the Lamb..”

1 Nephi 14:3:
And that great pit, which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children,, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell—yea, that great pit which hath been digged for the destruction of men shall be filled by those who digged it, unto their utter destruction, said the Lamb of God; not the destruction of the soul, save it be the casting of it into that hell which hath no end.

1 Nephi 14:9:
And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.

1 Nephi 14:10-11:
And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

1 Nephi 14:12:
And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters [oceans]; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

1 Nephi 14:13:
And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

1 Nephi 14:15-16:
And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth. And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things—

1 Nephi 14:17:
And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.

1 Nephi 22:13:
And the blood of that great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall turn upon their own heads; for they shall war among themselves, and the sword of their own hands shall fall upon their own heads, and they shall be drunken with their own blood.

1 Nephi 22:14:
And every nation which shall war against thee, O house of Israel, shall be turned one against another, and they shall fall into the pit which they digged to ensnare the people of the Lord. And all that fight against Zion shall be destroyed, and that great whore, who hath perverted the right ways of the Lord, yea, that great and abominable church, shall tumble to the dust and great shall be the fall of it.

2 Nephi 6:12:
And blessed are the Gentiles, they of whom the prophet has written; for behold, if it so be that they shall repent and fight not against Zion, and do not unite themselves to that great and abominable church, they shall be saved; for the Lord God will fulfill his covenants which he has made unto his children; and for this cause the prophet has written things.

2 Nephi 10:16:
Wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, shall perish; for they are they who are the whore of all the earth; for they who are not for me are against me, saith our God.

2 Nephi 28:18:
But behold, that great and abominable church, the whore of all the earth, must tumble to the earth, and great must be the fall thereof.

The Book of Mormon uses different terms for different things:

The Great and Abominable Church
The Whore of All the Earth
Baylon The Great
The Harlot
The Church of the Devil

There are some verses in the Book of Mormon that talk in broad terms and others that speak of a specific church.

“Babylon the Great” and “The Church of the Devil” are broad terms to mean “not of the church of God.” That’s clearly what 1 Nephi 14:9 is saying. But look at the other scriptures and you’ll see they are referring to a SPECIFIC church:

- In the Book of Mormon, there are many references to “a church which is most abominable above all other churches.”

- This church had a history of an Inquisition similar to the Roman Catholic Church in that it “slayeth the Saints of God, yea and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron and bringeth them down into captivity” (1 Ne. 13:5).

- The people involved with this depraved organization wore finery similar to priestly vestments; their church structures were ornate; and women in their church, like nineteenth-century Catholic nuns, were accused of sexual misconduct. Smith’s Nephi reported in the Book of Mormon that he “saw gold, silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots” (1 Ne. 13).

- Smith went on to assert that this abominable church “whose foundation is the Devil” and who is “the whore of all the earth” would pervert the scriptures entrusted to people by God, i.e. the Bible.

- A book was to come from the Jews which would contain the gospel. The writer claimed this book (The Bible) eventually would fall into the “hands of the Great and abominable church” after which are “many plain and precious things taken away from the Book” (1 Ne. 13:26-29).

- The Book of Mormon also predicted the sale of indulgences. “Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say, come unto me and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins” (Morm. 8:32)

These are SPECIFIC references to the Catholic Church.

So the Book of Mormon talks in specific terms about the Catholic Church (The whore and the abominable church) and in broad terms (Great Babylon and the Church of the Devil).

The Mormon Church also has a long and consistent history of bashing Christians and Christianity. See:

http://www.i4m.com/think/history/mormon_christians.htm

I don’t consider Hagee a Christian.

And motes and beams dear one. The LDS has a beam in their eye.

Yep and it goes on from there. I have no idea why Resty is defending them so much, seriously.

well, off to bed it is late here.

HUGS.

This is all wet those Book of Mormon reference has nothing to do with the Catholic church.

it is you who is filling in the blanks with your old canards!

Pratts have always been great at speculation and it seems on this one John Taylor was speculating.

This stuff started with the protestants centuries ago it is old folks lore handed down for eons!

You are speculating about JS at no time did he ever says things as you said his only statement was what he heard from the Lord in the grove but still he knew that there are many good principles in other religions.

for some reason everything about the LDS has to be 100 percent wrong it seems so you can justify yourself!

BTW those passages has nothing to do with a church church there are another kinds of church which is not a God religion it has to do with the opposition that is trying to take over the world!