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Posted on 04/18/2010 9:49:35 PM PDT by Judith Anne
I seriously wonder about some FReepers, sometimes. Any other person accused of a crime would be defended by every FReeper as being innocent until proven guilty by a court of law. I've seen whole threads written by men who have been accused of child abuse by ex-wives out to deny them their visitation rights or to wrest more money out of them. These men are rightly indignant, and furious about the unjust accusations that cannot be proven but are never withdrawn.
Yet where are those FReepers when a PRIEST is accused? Where is the presumption of innocence? Suddenly, every accusation becomes a verdict, and not only the accused but his entire organization and all its adherents are held responsible.
I can only wonder what some of these so-called conservatives (who so faithfully defend the Constitution) would do, if THEY were the ones accused! It is a nightmare for any man -- all of you know how even the accusation stains the man forever, even if it is proven false!
Not only that, many here assert that the problems of 30, 40 and even 50 years ago must be tried in the media TODAY!
Remember the Duke rape case? There are more similarities than differences here. The priests are accused, nifonged, and instead of being defended, they are vilified!
What other man of you could stand under the weight of such an accusation trumpeted by the press, and come out whole? None! And such accusations made, LONG after the statute of limitations has passed, sometimes even after the accused is dead and buried for YEARS -- are YOU one of those who automatically, reflexively, spitefully, and gleefully act as judge, jury, and executioner?
Women! What if it were YOUR HUSBAND, YOUR BROTHER, YOUR FATHER, YOUR UNCLE, YOUR SON who was accused? Wouldn't you want the best defense possible? Wouldn't YOU believe in their innocence? Wouldn't YOU help protect your loved ones as much as possible? And yet, YOU JUDGE THE CHURCH FOR DOING WHAT YOU WOULD DO?
Shame! Vast shame! On all who have sinned against the innocent!
The Chester Beatty papyrus #46 is a collection of Paul's writings and the Letter to the Hebrews and Ephesians is included. This manuscript is dated to about 200 C.E.
Speechless.....
JA said all the stuff she said about St. Paul, and almost immediately Catholics disagreed or professed their admiration, etc. for the man Aquinas usually calls just "The Apostle."
If the point of these posts is just to bash Catholics without regard for the truth, have at it, and much good may it do you.
But if you want folks to think that truth is something that matters to you all, I'd be a little less wholesale in attributing problems with Paul to "all" or even "many" Catholics.
En passant I note how Luther's remark about St. James doesn't provoke the consternation the JA's remark does, though JA is just a private woman expressing her emotional response while Luther was a theologian and heresiarch.
And to ignore JA's repeated expression that what she said is merely her personal reaction to Paul and is more about her than about him, that seems to me to be childish.
Evidently childish name-calling and the sorts of arguments I used to have in fifth grade are considered adult fare here. In a time when the body of Christ is under threat from within and without, we circle like donkeys, facing the enemy but kicking each other. That will bring, I think, neither peace nor converts. By the grace of God, neither peace nor converts are in our hands, but in his, so I won't panic. But I will be interested to hear how this sort of thing is consistent with the evangelical duty we all share.
I don't need to hear now. I trust I will learn at the Lord's judgment seat how magnifying one person's comment into an obviously false and misleading indictment of a whole group of Christians is any kind of obedience to the Great Commission.
For a reason similar to that because of which He tells us to pray, "Thy will be done."
It is not for Him, but for our good that we say that. It is a daily (at least - sometimes 8 times a day) conforming to the best of our feeble ability of our wills to His.
Also, I think he does not always wait. Sometimes when our prayers are granted we don't even notice and we don't notice that they are sometimes granted before we pray.
Still I think it is good for us to ask.
(No. the Johan Nine is NOT a Amish baseball team.)
If somebody steps on my finger, my FIRST response might be "Get OFF me, you're hurting me!" Then I might say, "You stepped on my finger!"
So being a member of Christ's Body, each Christian is, in some sense alter Christus. I would have thought that was not controversial. Jesus does not say to Saul, "Why persecutest thou my members?" but "Why persecutest thou me?"
So, and this would be the controversial part I guess, our sacramental theology is a special case of what is given to all members of the body -- bone of His bone, flesh of His flesh. And that's why the moral character of the priest does not touch the efficacy of the Sacraments. It is, we think, not what the priest himself, qua indiwiddle, brings to the Mass or Reconciliation. As I said earlier, if it were, who would dare?
It is rather, we think, because the priest, a minister (that is, someone who is less) is in a limited and very specific sense alter Christus that an effective absolution is given or an effective Mass is offered.
Not only, therefore, is there an argument from the Church's being the Body of Christ, but also there is one from the meaning of "apostle," of our being sent. Jesus says, on Easter Evening, "As the Father sent me, so I send you." (And Dawg trots off to find his Greek Testament.) ἀπέσταλκεν -- πέπμω are the words in question. This sending is a sending as agents, and as I say often the maxim is "The principle is responsible for the acts of his agent." If I make you my agent to buy a piece of land, you can seal the deal, And I must pay the price. So the quality of the priest's being 'another Christ' is that of being Christ's agent.
And again this is not so very different from our agency as lay-folk. Because we hate and yield to anger and avarice, Christ's whole body suffers. When we are generous and clement then people can see our good works and glorify our Father in heaven.
Not hardly a personal attack, but a statement of fact.
Judith Anne posted her opus, begged to be banned, was not banned, and is now again posting on FR.
It is all a matter of record. In fact I am pinging GRPL secretary/historian Alex Murphy to chime in with the date/time of those posts.
The usual gang has done exactly what I expected them to do. I’m not concerned.
I’ve heard so many times that we Catholics fall in lock-step, we aren’t allowed to read the Bible for ourselves, we can’t decide for ourselves what to think, we are told we have to agree on everything or our Church will send us to hell —
well, I don’t like St. Paul, I never have, and so far, no Catholic has told me that the Church says I will go to hell for it.
But the non-Catholics? Heh. The invective has been interesting. Not only that, they have attributed my own personal opinion to all Catholics, even when other Catholics strongly disagree with me.
Illustrates something about the non-Catholics. Very very clearly.
***Not only that, they have attributed my own personal opinion to all Catholics, even when other Catholics strongly disagree with me.***
Not hardly. I asked if this line of thinking was the party line.
Hyperbole is clearly in play here, which clearly illustrates something about the FROman Catholic MO.
Who said that my line of thinking was Catholic belief?
Following you logic. You cast a wide net on Prods. If A=B then B=A
I posted fact.
Most Catholics disagreed with my opinion about Paul.
Most non-Catholics insisted on making my opinion the opinion of all Catholics, in spite of the fact that it was not so.
Perhaps Alex Murphy can look up the post where I begged to be banned, and post it for you.
Otherwise, please do not make this thread about me, anymore.
“Please do not make this thrad about me, anymore.”
Yes, please do not.
That remark of hers was not about what you said. Just read the last couple of pages of this thread and you'll see that others are exactly taking her remark and saying that it's somehow representative. If JA's remark were about you, then the hyperbole remark would be on target. But her remark isn't about you but about the statements of others, so the hyperbole charge is itself hyperbolic.
In other news, I think even a true statement can be personal. Judith Anne is not the subject, as far as I know.
It’s not “about you” but about the intent of the author quoted in the OP, who just happens to be you.
And I didn’t bring up the idea of an opus, but jessduntno way back in post 3. Fact is when you post a vanity thread you are opening you writings up to the same level of scrutiny/discussion as the author of an article posted from any other source. That being said I do think as a FReeper you were given much more slack than a thread coming from an outside source.
Tell you what, I’ll ping the RM for her/his wsdom on this...
Thank you, MD
You said it for me and better than I could say it for myself (as usual).
Long time in coming.
“Because we hate and yield to anger and avarice, Christ’s whole body suffers.”
It has always been this way.
I thank God for you, MD
I’m pretty much in agreement with all your points, Bro.
Biblically, it just gets into issues that get folks wound up quickly over . . . and it doesn’t seem like anything like a core set of issues to me so I tend to try and leave it alone.
Christ calls us to be broken bread and poured out wine to those around us, as He was and is. We are to be HIS hands extended. etc.
Thx.
I thought
hyperbole
was the agreed upon standard and preferred lingua franca of such threads???!!
I mean, without hyperbole, posts on such threads are not properly dressed for public display, are they!?
LOL.
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