LOLOL. Squirrels in an ermine dress and Prada shoes.
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Posted on 04/18/2010 9:49:35 PM PDT by Judith Anne
I seriously wonder about some FReepers, sometimes. Any other person accused of a crime would be defended by every FReeper as being innocent until proven guilty by a court of law. I've seen whole threads written by men who have been accused of child abuse by ex-wives out to deny them their visitation rights or to wrest more money out of them. These men are rightly indignant, and furious about the unjust accusations that cannot be proven but are never withdrawn.
Yet where are those FReepers when a PRIEST is accused? Where is the presumption of innocence? Suddenly, every accusation becomes a verdict, and not only the accused but his entire organization and all its adherents are held responsible.
I can only wonder what some of these so-called conservatives (who so faithfully defend the Constitution) would do, if THEY were the ones accused! It is a nightmare for any man -- all of you know how even the accusation stains the man forever, even if it is proven false!
Not only that, many here assert that the problems of 30, 40 and even 50 years ago must be tried in the media TODAY!
Remember the Duke rape case? There are more similarities than differences here. The priests are accused, nifonged, and instead of being defended, they are vilified!
What other man of you could stand under the weight of such an accusation trumpeted by the press, and come out whole? None! And such accusations made, LONG after the statute of limitations has passed, sometimes even after the accused is dead and buried for YEARS -- are YOU one of those who automatically, reflexively, spitefully, and gleefully act as judge, jury, and executioner?
Women! What if it were YOUR HUSBAND, YOUR BROTHER, YOUR FATHER, YOUR UNCLE, YOUR SON who was accused? Wouldn't you want the best defense possible? Wouldn't YOU believe in their innocence? Wouldn't YOU help protect your loved ones as much as possible? And yet, YOU JUDGE THE CHURCH FOR DOING WHAT YOU WOULD DO?
Shame! Vast shame! On all who have sinned against the innocent!
We each have a road to walk. Thankfully, all those roads do not lead to Rome, but to Jesus Christ.
Why ask God? It's the Roman Catholic Church which confers the title of *saint* on people they think lead exemplary lives. God never commanded us to do that. He never advocated creating a *sainthood* and praying TO them.
I don't know what "Catholics really think" (in the sort of sociological statistical sense) but I have some idea of what the Church teaches, and the Church would, um, Guffaw to the Max - :-) - over the idea that the Saints were sneaking behind God's back to grant favors to their petitioners.
I'll ask around about where/when the practice doctrine arose. I have no idea of the history of it.
Since you have no basis for this opinion you are participating in mind reading on, dare I say, a biblical scale.
See post 2,320. Learn the rules.
As we have seen from just brief portions of Ferraro’s manual for MEDITATIONS ON THE ROSARY . . .
This whole straw dog about
Roman Catholics et al
ONLY pray “TO” saints, asking the merely to pray for them . . .
they purportedly don’t ASK THE SAINTS TO DO, provide, make things happen for the living on this side . . . .
that whole straw dog is a pile of deceiving brazen falsehoods.
Maybe they deceive themselves. Certainly they are listening to The Deceiver to persist in such UNBIBLICAL heresies and blasphemies.
God sent Moses and Elijah to Christ, with witnesses. It had nothing to do with prayers to the dead. Moses represented the Law, and Elijah, the Prophets. God then removed them, leaving Christ alone, the fulfillment of the Law and the end of prophecy. Peter, by indicating his wish to erect 3 monuments to them, displayed the error in his thinking.
LOLOL. Squirrels in an ermine dress and Prada shoes.
AMEN! This is why FR Religion Forum is so instructive. We learn from saints like you daily.
Forgiveness is not a problem.
I’ve worked with a Mary Knoll Sister on the mission field. Am happy to cooperate shoulder to shoulder with Roman Catholics et al who give evidence of putting God first in their lives and earnestly doing HIS BIBLICAL work for HIS Kingdom.
We are ALSO exhorted to warn brothers who are headed for the ditch/have fallen in the ditch.
There’s a persistently new crop of lurkers hereon who deserve our obedience on such scores.
Thankfully, there’s also persistently a ready raft of rabid types who provide excellent foils for such discourses, assertions of Biblical truth.
By making this post about me you are breaking the rules. I only make mine about the truth. Had you prefaced you assertions with a qualifier like " I believe" or "it is my opinion" or "I'm guessing" or "I just pulled this out of by _ _ _ I wouldn't have commented. But when you state authoritatively and falsely what the Catholic Church or Catholics believe, when you are neither a Catholic nor a Catholic scholar you are either mind reading, projecting, or confabulating.
Now shut up and let the Religion Moderator do their job.
I do not understand your question. I said that. I still don't understand it. As far as I know God didn't tell anyone to go around being obnoxious about sola scriptura and falsely characterizing the beliefs of Catholics, but there's lots of that it Protestantism.
It's the Roman Catholic Church which confers the title of *saint* on people they think lead exemplary lives.
I'm pretty sure the Orthodox do as well.
He never advocated creating a *sainthood* ...
(What do the asterisks mean?) Again there's a terminology difference here. sainthood means the status of being Holy. All the redeemed are in the sainthood. I'm not saying that only our use of terms is right, I'm saying I don't understand your use of terms.
... and praying TO them.
We already know that Catholics and some non-Catholics disagree about the source and discernment of authoritative teaching. I DO understand that you think we are wrong.
Perhaps the Magicsterical would guffaw to the max over that.
However, I suspect you’ve been around plenty long enough to have DIRECTLY OBSERVED an abundance of those in the pews behaving and speaking precisely in those ways.
It’s an interesting technicality, pershaps. However, the rubber meets the road in PERSISTENT WORDS AND ACTIONS on the part of the masses in the pews.
They VERY PERSISTENTLY SOUND AND APPEAR to be speaking and acting exactly as one would expect of those EXPECTING THE ‘SAINTS’ to DO things FOR the earth bound petitioner.
Then when it gets over into magical talisman sorts of ornaments and practices e.g. with plastic Joseph’s, Jesus’s, Mary’s on dashboards etc. . . . Sheesh.
Interestingly, according to Father Kenneth Baker in this thread, the sins of the priest do not invalidate the mass.
What does supposedly invalidate the mass, however, is using donuts or raisin bread for flour wafers, or by invoking a wrong word here or there...
"...A Mass can be invalid for a number of reasons (we presuppose that the priest has been validly ordained): 1) because of a defect in the matter, for example, using sweet rolls instead of bread made only from wheat flour and water; 2) because of a defect in the form, for example, changing the words “This is my body” or “This is the cup of my blood” into something else; 3) because the priest positively excludes the intention to do what the Church does in offering Mass..."
And apparently if the priest is thinking of baseball and not Jesus Christ, the mass is likewise invalid, per #3.
Strange, isn't it? To think the sacrifice Jesus Christ suffered on the cross can be made "invalid" by men. lol. Of course, this is the same Father Baker who reminded us of Rome's errant theology when he noted -- "simply stated, the Catholic priest is another Christ. Through his ordination he has been granted the amazing gift of being a channel of divine grace for the eternal salvation of those he come into contact with—both in his official ministry and in his personal life."
Get that? "Another Christ," not just in their jobs, also in their "personal lives" as well.
And they wonder how the perversion of this church occurs.
Excellent.
Thank you.
So, are you saying that Moses and Elijah were alive or were they just an illusion?
If Moses represented the Law and Christ fulfilled the Law (and we are in full agreement on this) why the insistence on keeping the Law with respects to speaking to those who are no longer alive on earth?
If the saints who are no longer alive on this earth are to be "forgotten" or something, why do Protestants continue to name churches after them? Why do Protestants continue to make statues of them? Why do Protestants continue to make stained glass images of them? Why do some Protestants even ask them to pray for them?
The hubris of some Protestants is astounding. To the best of my knowledge, the ONLY thing that Protestants are in complete agreement on is the rejection of papal primacy, after that they go in all different directions.
I could blindfold a great many Baptists or Calvinists and take them into a mass where they would be unable to tell me whether they were in a Catholic, Lutheran or Anglican church.
I have posted pictures in this forum that have been dismissed as idolatry, when in fact, they were of the very church where the Reformation began, pictures that were left at Luther's tomb and certainly not by relatives.
I have been told on this forum that some would rather agree with the Nestorians than the Catholic Church. Do any of you even realize what Nestorianism is? Nestorianism is the belief that our Lord's Human and Divine Natures are TOTALLY SEPARATE.
I have seen more times than I can count on this forum anti-Catholics applauding a fellow anti-Catholic who OPENLY DENIES the Trinity. I cannot help but wonder what sort of hatred drives this.
This thread was intended to be about the desire of some to condemn the Catholic Church before all of the facts are even known. But what have we seen after more than two thousand posts? We have seen the same old litany of reasons why some on here will insist on hating the Catholic Church no matter what.
All believers are saints. The term was even used in the Old Testament.
However, this process of making a *Saint* with a capital *S*, and putting it in front of their name as a title like *Mr.* or *Dr*, is another thing.
That is something the Catholic church has taken on itself to do as there is no Scriptural directive for such action.
And there is no Scriptural directive to pray to individuals with such a title conferred on them.
We are commanded to pray to God because He knows what we need.
Matthew 6:Matthew 6:7-9
7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
9”This, then, is how you should pray:
“ ‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
The bible says that God’s judgment will start with the church and its pastors. You have to wonder what these guys were thinking, if they even believed in God.
1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.
ONE mediator.
But it's Paul, you know.......
To you and to all, I think I’m going to read a couple of books this afternoon. I spent all morning at the hospital, and I’m exhausted.
But here’s something to think about:
How many times are the anti-Catholic bigots going to ask me why I have a problem with Paul, after I have explained it more than once?
How many times are the anti-Catholic bigots going to bring up the old falsehood about Catholics worshiping Mary, even after they’ve been told probably hundreds of times Catholics do not?
How many times are the anti-Catholic bigots going to demand that Catholics justify every little thing? No Catholic is obliged to be at the beck and call of those who think Catholics are probably not Christian.
How many times are the anti-Catholic bigots going to act as though their own personal interpretation of scripture, no matter how much they disagree among themselves, is far superior to any way that a Catholic interprets it? Are they all their own Pope? Evidently.
How many times are anti-Catholic bigots going to instruct us as if we were their wayward children? That right there is a patronizing load of fertilizer.
How many times are anti-Catholic bigots going to make MY opinion of St. Paul into ALL CATHOLICS’ opinion of St. Paul?
How amny times are anti-Catholic bigots going to insist that Catholics denigrate St. Paul, when as far as I know, it is only me?
How long is it going to take someone to look up the authorship of Ephesians and learn that there is some question over it?
Answers: a million, a million, a million, a million, a million, a million, a million, a million, and forever.
Just my opinion.
We can aid the poor souls, not only by offering prayers, but by other acts of virtue: by almsgiving, by accepting a cross. Let us remember particularly the souls most abandoned, who are sometimes the most holy. God is pleased to reward our least service. And these souls, too, will not fail to aid us by their own gratitude in heaven. Even before their deliverance they pray for all benefactors. They have charity, which indeed excludes no one but which imposes on them a special duty toward those friends. Their prayers are efficacious even if they do not know in detail our condition, just as our prayers for them are efficacious though we do not know their condition. [496] May we also pray to the poor souls? The liturgy does not pray to them. But we are not forbidden to pray to them, though we must give preference to prayer for them......Each soul in purgatory is, as it were, a spiritual universe gravitating toward God. We can accelerate the process. Mass celebrated for these dear ones, indulgences gained for them, increase likewise our own store of merit. Perseverance, too, is necessary. Many believe too easily in the prompt deliverance of their dear ones, and after a period, say of a month, no longer pray for them.
So not only does Rome teach that men's actions on earth literally save other men supposedly in purgatory (or at the least speed them to heaven) Rome also, amazingly, permits men to pray to dead men in purgatory
"Flee from idolatry."
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