Posted on 03/21/2010 3:03:29 PM PDT by NYer
Christ established His Church; I choose His authority.
Your authority is yourself.
With the exception of the Wisconsin Synod, perhaps, the most orthodox of the current crop of Protestant theologies. Yet, there is no Lutheran denomination that I know of that can recite the three Creeds truthfully.
Very clear. The Christian Creeds begin this way:
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord...
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God...
WHOEVER wishes to be saved must, above all, keep the Catholic faith. For unless a person keeps this faith whole and entire, he will undoubtedly be lost forever. This is what the catholic faith teaches: we worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity...
You say that you know. Christians say that they believe. Only the Gnostics and the fanatics claim knowledge.
Interesting that you cherry pick the Church Fathers. Do you not know that Paul said that the Church is the foundation and pillar of truth?
D-fendr wrote:
“Where do you get the notion that Catholic Church denies the scripture it canonized?”
There it is again, the Catholic Church canonized the Scripture. You put it in such a way as to mean that had the Catholic Church not canonized the Holy Scriptures they wouldn’t be holy, as if their authority is conferred rather than inherent. I don’t even think you hear how this sounds. The Catholic Church likes to say that it is not the church of the book, but that the Bible is the book of the church. Again, in this elocution the real attitude of your magisterium comes out. The church stands over the book, not under it. And the head of its magisterium would stand in the place of Christ.
D-fender also said:
“If you believed those whom you quote, you would belong to the Catholic Church. Cognitive dissonance runs rampant in your positions.”
LOL. What a joke of an argument! You are what in Texas would be called all hat and no cattle.
MarkBnsr wrote:
“Yet, there is no Lutheran denomination that I know of that can recite the three Creeds truthfully.”
Then you don’t much. For response we continue to receive bluster from you.
MarkBnsr wrote:
“Very clear. The Christian Creeds begin this way:
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord...
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God...
WHOEVER wishes to be saved must, above all, keep the Catholic faith. For unless a person keeps this faith whole and entire, he will undoubtedly be lost forever. This is what the catholic faith teaches: we worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity...
You say that you know. Christians say that they believe. Only the Gnostics and the fanatics claim knowledge.”
Sigh ... yes, I do know what the creeds say: “pisteuo”/”credo”. Keep grasping at straws. Everyone will be impressed.
MarkBsnr wrote:
“Interesting that you cherry pick the Church Fathers. Do you not know that Paul said that the Church is the foundation and pillar of truth?”
I guess. But there sure are a bumper crop of cherries to pick there. You should try it sometime.
Yes, I even know who Paul said it to. He also said to him, “... from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:15-17) Wait, stop! Behold! What wonderment! The Holy Scriptures were inspired before the Catholic Church deigned to canonize them. Timothy was made wise unto salvation by them before he even had the authority of the Catholic Church to move him to faith.
Shazzam, as Gomer Pyle used to say. OK, now I’ll stop cherry picking the Holy Scriptures.
Then you don’t much. For response we continue to receive bluster from you.
Shall we go into a line by line study of the Athenasian Creed and see how the LCMS fares?
You. Augustine. Cognitive dissonance:
“I would not believe in the Gospels were it not for the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Hardly straws. Those who willfully interchange knowledge and belief are not trustworthy, and those who do it inadvertently are not credible.
And, according to your theory of 2 Timothy, before most were even written.
Shazzam indeed.
Which Scriptures? Answer: the Septuagint - the OT written in Greek. Jesus used them and the Church has always considered them to be the inspired OT as opposed to the antiChristian Jewish council of Jamnia which was convened to rid Judaism of this crazy new Jewish sect.
Timothy was made wise unto salvation by them before he even had the authority of the Catholic Church to move him to faith.
Wrong again, my friend. http://www.catholic-saints.info/roman-catholic-saints-s-z/saint-timothy.htm says that:
The story and history of Saint Timothy.
Timothy was a convert of St. Paul. He was born at Lystra in Asia Minor. His mother was a Jewess, but his father was a pagan; and though Timothy had read the Scriptures from his childhood, he had not been circumcised as a Jew.
On the arrival of St. Paul at Lystra the youthful Timothy, with his mother and grandmother, eagerly embraced the faith. Seven years later, when the Apostle again visited the country, the boy had grown into manhood, while his good heart, his austerities and zeal had won the esteem of all around him; and holy men were prophesying great things of the fervent youth. St. Paul at once saw his fitness for the work of an evangelist. Timothy was forthwith ordained, and from that time became the constant and much-beloved fellow-worker of the Apostle.
In company with St. Paul he visited the cities of Asia Minor and Greece - at one time hastening on in front as a trusted messenger, at another lingering behind to confirm in the faith some recently founded church. Finally, he was made the first Bishop of Ephesus; and here he received the two epistles which bear his name, the first written from Macedonia and the second from Rome, in which St. Paul from his prison gives vent to his longing desire to see his "dearly beloved son," if possible, once more before his death...
This child was inspired by God and by the newly exuberant missionary of the Church - Paul.
I seem to have heard that somewhere...
I notice that even the most diehard of our friendly opponents have ceased calling me out on it. Perhaps it is time to select another of similar effectiveness...
Of course. “This is my body”, in all synoptic gospels, and John 6 “This is food endeed”. And the supper at Emmaus, “they recognized Him in the breaking of the bread”.
I can read. That is sufficient, in this case.
It is precisely because the Holy Scripture is indeed so important for proper understanding of the Christian faith, that the counterscriptural heresy of Protestantism cannot be tolerated.
Your foundational heresies of Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura are not merely another interpretation of the scripture — although that would be bad enough. They are in contradiction of the scripture.
What makes you think I disagree with St. Augustine on that?
annalex wrote:
“Your foundational heresies of Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura are not merely another interpretation of the scripture — although that would be bad enough. They are in contradiction of the scripture.”
You are more Trentian than Trent. Why do you even bother responding to someone against whom the anathema has been pronounced?
annalex also wrote:
“... the counterscriptural heresy of Protestantism cannot be tolerated.”
Don’t you just wish that the Inquisition still existed and you could have Bernardo Gui’s job? You could be heating up the instruments of, ah, inquiry even now. No, sorry, that would not be necessary. Judgment has already been rendered. Pardon me. You could be piling wood around the stake even now.
MarkBsnr wrote:
“Timothy was a convert of St. Paul.”
Really? That’s not what St. Paul said: “... filled with joy, when I call to remembrance the genuine faith that is in you, which dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am persuaded is in you also.” (2 Timothy 1:4-5)
If you had actually read the NT and “kept all these things in [your] heart” instead of pasting some slapped together boilerplate from some Catholic (TM) approved website, you might have grasped that Timothy was already a believer in the Christ when Paul came upon him, as were his mother and grandmother. You might also have realized that the reason Timothy had from childhood “known the Holy Scriptures” (in this case, certainly the OT Holy Scriptures), that “make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus,” is because his mother and grandmother saw to it that he was taught them, that he was “trained in the way he should go.”
But then you’d have to admit that genuine faith, faith in the promised Messiah to come, resided in the hearts of many in Israel, because it was taught by Moses and all the faithful prophets who came after, and that therefore the limbus patrum, imagined by your Roman magisterium, could not be upheld as truth since it is in conflict with the Holy Scriptures.
I wish you would at least cherry pick the Holy Scriptures. You might grab on to a few that way. But you will only go to your approved authorities, who do not know the Scriptures half as well as even the child Timothy. Cut and paste. Cut and paste. Cut and paste, and never grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
So, I guess, I will await the next cut and paste ... yawn.
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