YOU WROTE :
Catholics.
As in what ? Roman Catholics or the catholic ( universal church established by Christ ) ? I would say it is the later. I don’t equate ROMAN catholics as the sole heir of the catholic ( universal ) church.
YOU WROTE :
I am not in a denomination. I never have been. I never will be. And only those who are in sacramental communion with the Body of Christ can know Christ in the fullest sense.
Well, welcome to the club then. I who do not belong to the Roman Catholic Church but am a believer in Jesus Christ consider myself to be in sacramental communion with the body of Christ IN THE FULLEST SENSE as well. Which means I am in sacramental union with St. Patrick, Peter and Paul.
YOU WROTE:
I don’t think any amount of explaining will work. You deny the communion of saints. Perhaps you should read up on that.
I Don’t deny the communion of saints. I AFFIRM IT. Anyone who believes in Jesus Christ and follows His word IS WITHIN THAT COMMUNION regardless of whether others verbally deny them that communion. Oh, and in regards to reading about it — why do you ask as if I am ignorant ? I DO READ ABOUT IT. It’s all there in HIS WORD — SCRIPTURE ( which St. Patrick treasures as well ).
YOU WROTE :
I don’t see that as odd at all when you consider that RR was a GOP member and leader. Now, it would be odd for a Democrat to claim RR as his own - especially if he were pro-abortion, a taxer and spender and wanted us to be weak compared to our foreign enemies. Protestantism teaches things that are not in keeping with traditional, historic Christianity.
RR Was a GOP member and leader but MORE IMPORTANTLY, his beliefs TRANSCENDS party lines. He was a conservative first, GOP second. How do I know that his personal beliefs trancends party lines ? Simple — HE USED TO BE DEMOCRAT until the Dem party abandoned Conservative principles. He said : “I did not leave the Democratic Party, the democratic Party left me.”.
It is BELIEF THAT COUNTS, not membership in an organization. You can be a member of group, church, org or institution X, but if ( God forbid ), that institution abandons its core beliefs, and you stand firm in yours, you don’t have to be a member of that group anymore.
YOU WROTE :
We are the only ones who share his faith.
SAYS WHO ? Millions of us share Patrick’s faith in Jesus Christ as well. What makes you think you are the one who exclusively shares Patrick’s faith ?
YOU WROTE:
He was not a Protestant. He was not a Baptist Protestant.
I never said he was ( read my original response ). Patrick was Patrick -— a Christian in the Roman world who believed in Jesus Christ and was faithful to His words.
YOU WROTE :
He was Catholic.
Again, Catholic as in what ? ROMAN ? or Catholic in the Universal sense of the word ?
I would say there is a difference between the two. You can be baptized into the ROMAN Catholic church and grow up to be an atheist/agnostic/denier of the faith ( and I know many who are ). Conversely, you may NOT be a member of the ROMAN catholic church and be a faithful follower of Jesus Christ. Which one of the two above examples belongs to the CATHOLIC ( note the non-use of the word — ROMAN ) church ?
I would say the later and scripture ( the same one St. Patrick treasures ) backs me up.
I would say that Patrick is CATHOLIC in the real sense of the word — he, like millions of us, are members of Christ’s UNIVERSAL ( AKA CATHOLIC, not ROMAN ) church.
YOU WROTE:
He and I could share the same the Eucharist, live under the same pope, under the same bishop, etc.
You are assuming that living under a pope equates to being a member of Christ’s church and this is where we differ.
Popes ( in the past ) and Bishops ( even today ) can be unfaithful to Christ as well and when they are, those who are FAITHFUL TO CHRIST are closer to His teachings than popes or bishops who are not.
IT IS OBEDIENCE TO CHRIST AND HIS WORDS THAT COUNTS.
“IF you Love Me, Obey My Commandments” — those are His words.
YOU WROTE:
He shares none of that with you.
And why not ? He believes in Christ, I do. He believes in Scripture, I do. He believes in the baptism of all who believe, I do. He believes in the Trinity, I do. NONE OF THAT ? Do you even know the meaning of the word — NONE ?
YOU WROTE:
St. Patrick and I would even share the same liturgical language - Latin.
And where is it written in Scripture ( God’s word)that one must use Latin in Liturgy ? I hasten to remind you that Vatican II ALLOWS worship to be held in NON-LATIN languages and thousands of masses worldwide are being held today in NATIVE NON-LATIN languages.
YOU WROTE:
We could even communicate with one another while you would - most likely - be unable to do so.
Who is “we” and what kind of communication are you talking about ? I am writing to you in ENGLISH ( a language God allowed to be almost universal in the world and which is prevalent everywhere), aren’t we communicating now in this tongue ?
YOU WROTE:
Christ is ONE. He has only ONE bride. It is not your sect. The bride is the Church.
THANK YOU. We agree at least on this one area. The only question remains — WHO IS A TRUE MEMBER OF HIS CHURCH ?
Scripture would tell us that ALL WHO TRULY BELIEVE HIM AND OBEY His teachings are members of His church.
St. Patrick is by virtue of meeting that requirement. You and I and anyone else qualify too if we all meet that requirement.
St. Paul ( who preceded Patrick ) said this clearly after he wrote about faith and obedience in his own epistle :
“There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither slave nor freeman, there can be neither male nor female — for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And simply by being Christ’s, you are that progeny of Abraham, the heirs named in the promise. “ ( Galatians 3:28-29 : ROMAN CATHOLC NEW JERUSALEM TRANSLATION )
You wrote:
“As in what ? Roman Catholics or the catholic ( universal church established by Christ ) ? I would say it is the later. I don’t equate ROMAN catholics as the sole heir of the catholic ( universal ) church.”
It doesn’t matter what you equate with what. St. Patrick was catholic. Period. I’m not “Roman Catholic” and neither was he.
“Well, welcome to the club then. I who do not belong to the Roman Catholic Church but am a believer in Jesus Christ consider myself to be in sacramental communion with the body of Christ IN THE FULLEST SENSE as well. Which means I am in sacramental union with St. Patrick, Peter and Paul.”
So you claim. At this point I have no reason to believe your claim. What Church or sect do you attend?
“I Don’t deny the communion of saints. I AFFIRM IT. Anyone who believes in Jesus Christ and follows His word IS WITHIN THAT COMMUNION regardless of whether others verbally deny them that communion. Oh, and in regards to reading about it — why do you ask as if I am ignorant ? I DO READ ABOUT IT. It’s all there in HIS WORD — SCRIPTURE ( which St. Patrick treasures as well ).”
No. The communion of saints is a specifically Catholic and Orthodox doctrine. Protestants, for instance, do not believe in the communion of saints. They believe in a specifically protestanized version of it. They do not believe, for instance, that there is actual communion between the saints in heaven and those on earth. If someone does not believe in communion between saints, then he doesn’t believe in the communion of saints. It’s just that simple.
“RR Was a GOP member and leader but MORE IMPORTANTLY, his beliefs TRANSCENDS party lines.”
He was a GOP member. To now say his beliefs transcend the party is to strech the lines of the analogy you yourself chose. When you are defeated with your own analogy you change the analogy.
“He was a conservative first, GOP second. How do I know that his personal beliefs trancends party lines ? Simple — HE USED TO BE DEMOCRAT until the Dem party abandoned Conservative principles. He said : “I did not leave the Democratic Party, the democratic Party left me.”.”
And thus my point still holds no matter what. The GOP is still not the Democrat party. Period. They are different organizations and have differing philosophies and history. Also, conservatism is still a different thing from liberalism. You are proving my point either way.
“It is BELIEF THAT COUNTS, not membership in an organization. You can be a member of group, church, org or institution X, but if ( God forbid ), that institution abandons its core beliefs, and you stand firm in yours, you don’t have to be a member of that group anymore.”
The organization counts because it is from God. Belief does indeed count, but no one can claim fully correct belief in Christ and Christianity and yet reject what Christ sent into the world - the Church. That’s one of the reasons why the Church is called Christ’s body.
“SAYS WHO ? Millions of us share Patrick’s faith in Jesus Christ as well. What makes you think you are the one who exclusively shares Patrick’s faith ?”
Because he was Catholic and so are we. The faith is not merely a belief in Jesus. The millions who share the faith with St. Patrick are all Catholic.
“I never said he was ( read my original response ). Patrick was Patrick -— a Christian in the Roman world who believed in Jesus Christ and was faithful to His words.”
He was a Catholic - that’s what the Christians in the Roman world were.
“Again, Catholic as in what ? ROMAN ? or Catholic in the Universal sense of the word ?”
Catholic. He wasn’t from Rome and neither am I. But we are from the same Church and are both Catholic.
“I would say there is a difference between the two. You can be baptized into the ROMAN Catholic church and grow up to be an atheist/agnostic/denier of the faith ( and I know many who are ). Conversely, you may NOT be a member of the ROMAN catholic church and be a faithful follower of Jesus Christ.”
No. First of all, I’m not and have never been a “Roman Catholic”. Neither was he. He was Catholic and so am I. Period. Also, to truly be a fully faithful follower of Christ, one must belong to His Church which He sent into the world. Membership in a later sect was not what He intended.
“Which one of the two above examples belongs to the CATHOLIC ( note the non-use of the word — ROMAN ) church ?
I would say the later and scripture ( the same one St. Patrick treasures ) backs me up.”
Actually scripture backs the Catholic Church. St. Patrick was Catholic and so am I.
“I would say that Patrick is CATHOLIC in the real sense of the word — he, like millions of us, are members of Christ’s UNIVERSAL ( AKA CATHOLIC, not ROMAN ) church.”
Nope. St. Patrick was Catholic and so am I.
“You are assuming that living under a pope equates to being a member of Christ’s church and this is where we differ.”
I am assuming that being a Catholic is being a Catholic. And I am correct in my assumption.
“Popes ( in the past ) and Bishops ( even today ) can be unfaithful to Christ as well and when they are, those who are FAITHFUL TO CHRIST are closer to His teachings than popes or bishops who are not.”
And yet all of them are still Catholics.
“IT IS OBEDIENCE TO CHRIST AND HIS WORDS THAT COUNTS.”
A Catholic is still a Catholic.
“And why not ? He believes in Christ, I do. He believes in Scripture, I do. He believes in the baptism of all who believe, I do. He believes in the Trinity, I do. NONE OF THAT ? Do you even know the meaning of the word — NONE ?”
He believed in the priesthood. Do you? He believed in the episcopacy. Do you? He believed in consecrations? Do you? He believed in celibacy. Do you?
“And where is it written in Scripture ( God’s word)that one must use Latin in Liturgy ? I hasten to remind you that Vatican II ALLOWS worship to be held in NON-LATIN languages and thousands of masses worldwide are being held today in NATIVE NON-LATIN languages.”
Actually Vatican II reaffirmed the primacy of place of Latin. Apparently you didn’t know that. And as to your other comments there is no point in responding since I suggested NOTHING like what you assert.
“Who is “we” and what kind of communication are you talking about ? I am writing to you in ENGLISH ( a language God allowed to be almost universal in the world and which is prevalent everywhere), aren’t we communicating now in this tongue ?”
St. Patrick didn’t know English. I can’t believe I have to tell you that.
“THANK YOU. We agree at least on this one area. The only question remains — WHO IS A TRUE MEMBER OF HIS CHURCH ?”
St. Patrick was. I am. You aren’t.
“Scripture would tell us that ALL WHO TRULY BELIEVE HIM AND OBEY His teachings are members of His church.”
That was about Catholics, not Protestants. None existed and scriptural references to the Church did not include them.
S”t. Patrick is by virtue of meeting that requirement. You and I and anyone else qualify too if we all meet that requirement.”
I have no reason to believe you qualify.
“St. Paul ( who preceded Patrick ) said this clearly after he wrote about faith and obedience in his own epistle :
“There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither slave nor freeman, there can be neither male nor female — for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And simply by being Christ’s, you are that progeny of Abraham, the heirs named in the promise. “ ( Galatians 3:28-29 : ROMAN CATHOLC NEW JERUSALEM TRANSLATION )”
It’s not a “Roman Catholic” translation. Also, St. Paul said nothing about Protestants in Galatians 3. Period.