Posted on 03/17/2010 12:58:48 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
If you ask people who Saint Patrick was, you're likely to hear that he was an Irishman who chased the snakes out of Ireland.
It may surprise you to learn that the real Saint Patrick was not actually Irish—yet his robust faith changed the Emerald Isle forever.
Patrick was born in Roman Britain to a middle-class family in about A.D. 390. When Patrick was a teenager, marauding Irish raiders attacked his home. Patrick was captured, taken to Ireland, and sold to an Irish king, who put him to work as a shepherd.
In his excellent book, How the Irish Saved Civilization, Thomas Cahill describes the life Patrick lived. Cahill writes, "The work of such slave-shepherds was bitterly isolated, months at a time spent alone in the hills."
Patrick had been raised in a Christian home, but he didn't really believe in God. But now—hungry, lonely, frightened, and bitterly cold—Patrick began seeking out a relationship with his heavenly Father. As he wrote in his Confession, "I would pray constantly during the daylight hours" and "the love of God . . . surrounded me more and more."
Six years after his capture, God spoke to Patrick in a dream, saying, "Your hungers are rewarded. You are going home. Look—your ship is ready."
What a startling command! If he obeyed, Patrick would become a fugitive slave, constantly in danger of capture and punishment. But he did obey—and God protected him. The young slave walked nearly two hundred miles to the Irish coast. There he boarded a waiting ship and traveled back to Britain and his family.
But, as you might expect, Patrick was a different person now, and the restless young man could not settle back into his old life. Eventually, Patrick recognized that God was calling him to enter a monastery. In time, he was ordained as a priest, then as a bishop.
Finally—thirty years after God had led Patrick away from Ireland—He called him back to the Emerald Isle as a missionary.
The Irish of the fifth century were a pagan, violent, and barbaric people. Human sacrifice was commonplace. Patrick understood the danger and wrote: "I am ready to be murdered, betrayed, enslaved—whatever may come my way."
Cahill notes that Patrick's love for the Irish "shines through his writings . . . He [worried] constantly for his people, not just for their spiritual but for their physical welfare."
Through Patrick, God converted thousands. Cahill writes, "Only this former slave had the right instincts to impart to the Irish a New Story, one that made sense of all their old stories and brought them a peace they had never known before." Because of Patrick, a warrior people "lay down the swords of battle, flung away the knives of sacrifice, and cast away the chains of slavery."
As it is with many Christian holidays, Saint Patrick's Day has lost much of its original meaning. Instead of settling for parades, cardboard leprechauns, and "the wearing of the green," we ought to recover our Christian heritage, celebrate the great evangelist, and teach our kids about this Christian hero.
Saint Patrick didn't chase the snakes out of Ireland, as many believe. Instead, the Lord used him to bring into Ireland a sturdy faith in the one true God—and to forever transform the Irish people.
YOU SAID:
You stole someone else’s work and passed it off as your own.
I never said it was my own. YOU SAID IT WAS MY OWN, NOT ME.
YOU SAID:
How pathetic.
And because you said so it is so ? This is getting to be predictable.
YOU SAID:
And now you make excuses for what you did. Of course.
Of course you have not dealt with the argument. But I am giving you a chance because I want to hear what you have to say. Is it forthcoming ??
YOU SAID:
You took someone else’s work. Don’t avoid it now.
Yes I did because I agree with it, but where is your response?
You wrote:
“I never said it was my own. YOU SAID IT WAS MY OWN, NOT ME.”
Oh, so you admitted it was someone else’s? R-I-G-H-T.
“And because you said so it is so ? This is getting to be predictable.”
So taking someone else’s stuff and passing it off as your own isn’t pathetic.
“Of course you have not dealt with the argument. But I am giving you a chance because I want to hear what you have to say. Is it forthcoming ??”
Since you clearly didn’t read the article I linked to but instead passed off someone else’s work as your own I see no reason to respond to what wasn’t yours but you passed off as yours.
You wrote:
“Yes I did because I agree with it,...”
Oh, so that makes taking it okay?
“...but where is your response?”
Did you read the article I linked to?
“God can do anything except create the world in six days 5770 years ago. And “there is no inconsistency!”
Why do I even bother?
I didn’t say that God could not create the world in six days 5770 years ago. I said that that idea is an error, which means that He *didn’t* create the world in that way.
He chose to create the world in a way that left the fossil record, which appears to be considerably older than 5770 years.
So, yes: when one looks at what I actually said, there is no inconsistency.
You seem determined to create one, though.
“God can do anything except create the world in six days 5770 years ago. And “there is no inconsistency!”
Why do I even bother?
I didn’t say that God could not create the world in six days 5770 years ago. I said that that idea is an error, which means that He *didn’t* create the world in that way.
He chose to create the world in a way that left the fossil record, which appears to be considerably older than 5770 years.
So, yes: when one looks at what I actually said, there is no inconsistency.
You seem determined to create one, though.
“Oh, so that makes taking it okay?”
Yes, in a forum like this, it most certainly does.
Scholarly citation of sources is not required here. At all.
“Catholicism denies that J*sus takes the individual’s place in hell and is vicariously damned, thus providing assurance (ie, “presumption”)”
I was raised in hard-core protestant churches, and none of them ever taught that “Jesus takes the individual’s place in hell and is vicariously damned, thus providing assurance.”
Right here is the first time I’ve come across that idea.
Now, there may be some, ah, fringe elements whose theology has become that corrupt, but it is not true that this notion is universal in, or even characteristic of, protestantism.
Never heard of “backsliding,” I suppose.
Listen, to discuss these matters with credibility, one must correctly understand at least some things about Catholicism and protestantism. So far, everything you’ve said about either has been factually incorrect.
“Actually by your admission, you follow the Pope as your absolute head”
Where do you protestants come up with these nutty ideas?
The Pope is not the absolute head of the Church. Any authority he exercises is lent him by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
The Pope may not, for instance, contradict Scripture, nor anything that flows from Scripture. This is why he is powerless to authorize the ordination of women or acceptance of sodomy. He is powerless to contradict any of the things set forth in the Apostles Creed, as they are all Scriptural.
We hope that the Pope will provide the Church with the guidance it needs, himself guided by the Holy Trinity.
If Popes were absolute heads of the Church, we would fear them. Instead, we love them (some more that others, which is to be expected when one reflects that they are just men).
It didn’t have to be scholarly. It just should have been cited. Even quote marks would have helped.
I have no idea why you’re addressing that to me when I never made the comment in question.
Sorry.
I grew up in N Ireland and Protestants didn’t celebrate St Patrick. When we were permitted a parade - we were ordered to stay in our own area. When Protestants celebrated King Billy, 12th July, they insisted in parading into our area with their Orange sashes yelling insults at us. We were a minority in our own country. Today things are much better though many Presbyterians/Calvinists remain embittered but can’t act it out the way they used to...in fairness the Methodists and Anglicans were always a lot more respectful and join in the celebrations - they were probably afraid to in the past because of the ire they’d get from the orangemen.
Protestants don’t really celebrate the birthday of anyone except Jesus Christ ( and his date of birth isn’t even certain ).
The Saints Protestants quote most often for instance are Paul and John, yet, they don’t even celebrate their birthdays ( well to be fair, we don’t know when they were born ). Protestants don’t even celebrate the birthdays of Luther, Calvin or Wesley.
I also note that in the USA, especially here in NYC, St. Patrick’s day has often become an occasion for drunken revelry such that a huge number of Policemen have to be called on duty to prevent it from devolving into fights ( which have oftentimes occurred ). St. Patrick would have disapprove of what has happened in his name.
However, for me personally, celebrating or not celebrating someone great Saint’s birth is secondary. The important thing is we EMULATE their faith and their example. That honors them more in my opinion.
YOU WROTE
Oh, so you admitted it was someone else’s? R-I-G-H-T.
Yes, but his argument conforms with mine, he said it better.
And you have not even remotely addressed the argument that we both agreed with.
YOU SAID:
So taking someone else’s stuff and passing it off as your own isn’t pathetic.
I never said it was my own, I said I agreed with it. YOU are the one saying that I am passing it off as my own.
And again, you have NOT addressed the argument.
YOU SAID:
Since you clearly didn’t read the article I linked to but instead passed off someone else’s work as your own I see no reason to respond to what wasn’t yours but you passed off as yours.
I did read the article, and the article’s arguments do not convince.
It FORCES the plain meaning of the word — brother - into something else. THE NORMAL AND LITERAL MEANING IS PHYSICAL BROTHER. It cannot be “cousin” ( because there is another word for cousin and it was not used ), and it cannot be brethren in the faith because the Bible states that “even his brothers did not believe in him”.
And it does not satisfactorily deal with the issue of Joseph having sexual union with Mary ( He did not have union with Mary UNTIL the birth of Jesus ).
Elsewhere the Bible also mentions that someone said to Jesus : “Your mother and brothers are here to see you.”
Jesus’ response was ( and I am paraphrasing): “who are my mother and brothers? Those who believe in me and follow me are my mother and brothers”.
The plain reading of the text is simple and straightforward -— Mary was clearly Jesus’ mother and His other siblings were with her. Jesus then drew a distinction between the spiritual and physical -— those who believe in Him are also his mother and brother ( not only his mother Mary and his siblings ).
You would like to complicate things in order to support a theory which came centuries later.
YOU SAID:
Oh, so that makes taking it okay?
What rule says that using someone’s words ( when it is not copyrighted and free for all to use ) is not OK. It would not be OK if the writer said we cannot use his arguments.
YOU WROTE:
Did you read the article I linked to?
Yes, and I posted my response above and also the response of the person who responded to the arguments in the article you linked to.
Now I’d like to read YOUR response to these, not simply the link.
The only one who can really claim Patrick is almighty God. I’m fairly sure Patrick himself would have seen it like that anyway.
Hold on Vlad...you assert that Patrick was “Catholic”, but I was under the impression that he was part of the great Celtic Christian movement, followed later on by heroes like Columba and Gildas and so on. Now as I understand, that movement was rather at odds with the “Roman” Christian tradition, aka Augustine - which presumably was also “catholic”. They had rather different interpretations of the way things should be done, the role of monks and so on. Yet they were all Christians. Surely if there were differences between them, and yet they were still all catholics, then in the same way we could all be heirs (or more specifically beneficiaries) of Patrick and his works?
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