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So, the question to wmfights is -- if you assume that even though the fACTs say that Ambrose was born into a Christian family and was known as a Christian, despite this, he was baptised as an adult was a pagan until baptised, do you beleive that Baptists (as inferred by your statement) are pagans until baptised?

I believe that Baptism is a means of grace, that it saves, but it isn't a 'work' of man but that it is God's gift and that the commandment to preach the Gospel and baptize means children too. As a Baptist wmfights would probably disagree with me and as a Baptist he should.

I neither stated or 'implied' that Baptist children are pagan until they get baptized. Neither did I for Ambrose. However in Ambrose's case as he was old enough to be a Bishop the question of why he wasn't baptized from a Christian family is relevant. Not that he was a bad guy as he rests in heaven but in light of Catholics speaking hereon it is reasonable. Just as I would question a Baptist about his kid who upon reaching 34 years of age hadn't been baptized.

"I neither stated or 'implied' that Baptist children are pagan until they get baptized. Neither did I for Ambrose." --> And no one said YOU did -- you jumped onto a discussion point between me and wmfights. And, for the record, I do NOT believe that wmfights believes that either -- it's just that if he came to the conclusion "Ambrose not baptised until adult, hence was a pagan before baptism", then the question arises too about his logic for his own denomination (of Baptists)

That is the fault with personal, flawed interpretation -- you or I can err (very easily in my case :-P), but the community of believers stretchign back 2000 years does NOT

"I believe that Baptism is a means of grace, that it saves, but it isn't a 'work' of man but that it is God's gift and that the commandment to preach the Gospel and baptize means children too" ---> that's a very orthodox belief. Good on you! For wmfights, I've enumerated the reasons why it is the scriptural, traditional correct one

We do disagree on it. From the Baptist perspective we believe Baptism follows faith.

Concerning Ambrose:

pg 103: His father came from the highest social class. As Praetorian Prefect of Gaul he ruled a huge chunk of western Europe and was one of the half-dozen most important civilians in the empire. "A History of Christianity" by Paul Johnson.

Ray Charles could see that it was political force driving Ambrose' assension in the hierarchy of the RCC, not any great theological abilities exhibited over an extended period of time. Ambrose is the one being quoted in this thread "Mary is the Temple of God". It's good to know the real background.