A Protestant Discovers Mary

NC Register ^ | March 13, 2010

[xone]

MDC,

My point on SS: even if there was no church history or recounting of infant baptism from the period, Scriptures itself speak through the words: all/paedia/household etc about the universality of the practice and the lack of exclusionary words. When Jesus speaks of all men he means all people not just males.

Regarding symbol v. sacrament. Baptism has God’s Word and an external element. It is a work of God for us, not a work of man.

[Cronos]

1. Which are these customs?
2. How do you state that these are not Apostolic Customs? Do they contradict scripture -- scripture which was born out of Apostolic Tradition
3. We do not pray to Mary in the sense of worshipping her -- she is not divine, but a created being. We ask her to pray for us. God's plan is for us to help others, Mary follows God's plan by helping us the only way she can -- by praying for us.

[Cronos]

even if there was no church history or recounting of infant baptism from the period, Scriptures itself speak through the words: all/paedia/household etc about the universality of the practice and the lack of exclusionary words. When Jesus speaks of all men he means all people not just males.

Exactly.

E. The doer, or agent (Lat. agens), in the sacraments is Christ Himself. The act performed by a minister is not simply a signum significans (“sign that means something”) but a signum efficax (“creative sign”). Hence Luther not only asks: “What does such baptizing with water signify?” but also says: “It effects forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and grants eternal salvation to all who believe, as the Word and promise of God declare.… Baptism [is] a gracious water of life and a washing of regeneration in the Holy Spirit, as St. Paul wrote to Titus (3:5–8).” And: “Forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation are given to us in the sacrament [of the altar].” (SC IV 6, 10; VI 6)

[Ken4TA]

While I would love to discuss both the IC of Mary and the history of infant baptism, I find that I don't have the time to expound upon them in the near future. I'll be unavailable for the next week or so because I'm involved in working with our Patriots group for town halls this spring and summer heading into the elections in November.

This does not mean that I'll not keep track of you all in this discussion - just that I'll not be able to respond. I wish you all good luck and best wishes in your discussions. May the spirit of God be with you all in this work.

Ken

PS: Cronos, I'll be watching for your response on substantiating that the early church believed in the IC of Mary, or that they prayed to her for intersession. Good luck.

[Iscool]

Paul says in 2 Thess 2:15 "15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings[a] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth OR by letter." that one requires both Tradition AND Scripture.

Now why would you tell a story like that??? And does not mean or in Hebrew, Greek, Eubonics or pig-Latin...

You said 'or' means 'and'...No it certainly does not...Paul warned about you guys that pervert the scriptures...

But IF the scriptures said and instead of or, WHAT oral traditions were handed down from the Apostle Paul to your religion???

OR means 'pick one'...AND means 'both'...AND is not in the verse...Your religion has perverted the scripture to con you guys into believing your religion's oral tradition is real and authoritative, while declaring to you that you can't understand little words like and/or without your religion's private interpretation and guidance...

[Iscool]

And in 1 Cor 11:2 2I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,[a] just as I passed them on to you.

And Acts 35In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'

which is an oral tradition handed down to Paul.

AND, it was oral tradition that ultimately turned into scripture...

[Cvengr]

"scripture which was born out of Apostolic Tradition"

No, Scripture that was born from the Word of God, our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus via God the Holy Spirit.

[Cronos]

Scripture was authored by the Holy Spirit through men. In the same way scripture was born out of Apostolic Tradition
(men) with the “direction” done by the Word of God, our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus via God the Holy Spirit.

[Cronos]

it was oral tradition that ultimately turned into scripture Good -- that is a correct statement. And scripture does not include ALL of the Word which is apparent due to the number of flawed interpretations from the JWs to the Word Of FAith Pentecostals (Kenneth Hagin, BEnny Hinn etc.) --> oral tradition which is OF God through His Apostles was the repository of faith to help understand and read Scripture. Scripture when read in the community formed by Christ -- The Church, is true to Apotolic teachings and does not come up with strange interpretations like the JWs

[Cronos]

Read the sentence -- it does not give an EITHER/OR false dichtomy denying the truth of one based on the truth of the other. Teachings as taught by word of Mouth from the Apostles are True as are teachigns as taught by letter from the Apostles.

"OR" means "pick one" if you say "Choose this OR that", but not if you say "You can learn calculus from the text book or by listening to the teacher" -- one does not negate the other

And that is the false dichtomy produced by the various solas -- God is not to be reduced to a false dichtomy.

[Cronos]

I already referred you to Ireneus, Cyprian, etc. — you can read them and you will find that these early Christians taught the Catholic faith. Ditto for Origen and Augustine who were very clear that infant baptism was practised in the EArly Church. The latter was also clear that it was wrong to deny infant baptism.

[Iscool]

"OR" means "pick one" if you say "Choose this OR that", but not if you say "You can learn calculus from the text book or by listening to the teacher" -- one does not negate the other

BINGO...We have a winner...

You can learn calculus by listening to the teacher...OR, you can learn calculus by the book...BUT they must teach the same thing...The calculus teacher must teach orally what he read from the book...OR, the book must be written to match what the teacher taught...

Of course you'll never admit it but you explained how oral tradition is the same as the written words...If you can chose one or the other they must be the same...

And if you claim what is not true, that you were given the oral tradition AND the written word, you could have a case in your favor...But that's not what the scripture says...

[Iscool]

And scripture does not include ALL of the Word which is apparent due to the number of flawed interpretations from the JWs to the Word Of FAith Pentecostals (Kenneth Hagin, BEnny Hinn etc.)

What's also flawed is your thinking...

There's one bible out there that came from the Majority Texts...That would be the KJV...Every other bible out there comes from the Catholic manuscripts...And there's over two hundred versions of those manuscripts turned into bibles...

So look at the JWs...They built their own bible...Your religion has fabricated a new bible to go along with its 'tradition'...The Mormons have an additional bible...

As far as the rest of the crews that don't agree on everything, they all have one thing in common...They don't believe the scripture as it's written...Like you, when they see an 'or' that they don't like, they change it to an 'and' like you do to suit their position...

But God however never said in His scriptures that people would go to hell for not believing everything He said, or for misunderstanding His words...In fact what he did say is:

1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1Co 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1Co 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

But there is ONE thing all those members must have in common...They must ALL be born again...Born from above...

Aside from the far out ones, I can walk into any Protestant denomination church and feel right at home...Because I am home...

[Cronos]

“There’s one bible out there that came from the Majority Texts...That would be the KJV...” —> not really. Check the history of the KJV

[Cronos]

“The JWs built their own bible” — as did the creators of the KJV.

[Cronos]

Ah, so you can walk into any Protestant denomination — please join the Word of Faith Pentecostasl or the ECUSA

[DungeonMaster]

"scripture which was born out of Apostolic Tradition"

No, Scripture that was born from the Word of God, our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus via God the Holy Spirit.

Heb1:1,2 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son...

[Iscool]

Check the history of the KJV

Have done so...Extensively...

[Iscool]

Ah, so you can walk into any Protestant denomination — please join the Word of Faith Pentecostasl or the ECUSA

In spite of what Benny Hinn or the others teach, I'll bet there's a bunch of Christians who go to those meetings...

[Cronos]

And completing the sentence — would YOU feel at home there in Benny’s crew?