Posted on 02/15/2010 9:07:17 AM PST by GonzoII
The Scenario:
Ever have one of those days when you’re feeling full of energy and vigor? I mean, you’re feeling just obnoxiously happy? Well, this is one of those days.
Driving home from work, you switch on the radio to see what’s happening, and you tune in to a local Protestant radio station just in time to hear a preacher speaking against various Catholic doctrines concerning Mary. The show is called Pastor Bob’s Bible Hour. Pastor Bob proclaims: “Jesus knew Catholics would come along and begin to worship His mother and call her perpetual virgin and absurd things like that. But the Bible says: ‘Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And are not His brethren James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And are not all of His sisters with us?’ (Matt. 13:55-56a). And isn’t it sad, my brothers and sisters?”
Pastor Bob goes on to say: “Jesus dealt with these Mary worshippers in His day. In Luke 11:27-28, the Bible says, ‘A woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts that You sucked!” But He said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”’”
On a normal day you would probably just listen, take a few mental notes and drive on. But not this time. You’re feeling a little bit too saucy. You take the first exit you see and head for a phone. This is just one more reason why you need to buy that cell phone you’ve been talking about getting.
Step One:
(Excerpt) Read more at envoymagazine.com ...
Same here.
It's just more of that "splitting the atom" stuff (veneration vs. worship).
My son attends a RC high school. After they say the Lord's Prayer they say notre dame. They just built a grotto with a statue of Mary and we see people lighting candles and kneeling down and praying to this statue. It's worship and the elevation of Mary to something she never was.
The family joke is when asking my son about college his response is any without a grotto. He's 16 and sees it for what it is, why don't adults?
If you're bowing down, kneeling, and praying to it expecting your prayer to be heard the answer is YES!
“”This scripture is metaphor . The woman is Israel birthing Christ””
You have this wrong,Dear Sister, Mary is also a type of the Church that Births Christ and the Church is a replacement for Israel as UNIVERSAL Salvation for all,not just for the Jews
The Birth Pains described in the notes of the Douay Rheims says this...
“The church is clothed with the sun, that is, with Christ: she hath the moon, that is, the changeable things of the world, under her feet: and the twelve stars with which she is crowned, are the twelve apostles: she is in labour and pain, whilst she brings forth her children, and Christ in them, in the midst of afflictions and persecutions.”
This can be “Typed” with Mary as well as Figure of the Church
MARY IS OUTSTANDING FIGURE OF CHURCH
Pope John Paul II
A few Excerpts...
The Council Fathers attribute to Mary the function of “type”, that is, figure, “of the Church”, borrowing the term from St Ambrose who expresses himself thus in his commentary on the Annunciation: “Yes, she [Mary] is betrothed, but she is a virgin because she is a type of the Church which is immaculate but a bride: a virgin, she conceived us by the Spirit; a virgin, she gave birth to us without pain” (In Ev. sec. Luc., II, 7, CCL, 14, 33, 102-106). Thus Mary is a type of the Church because of her immaculate holiness, her virginity, her betrothal and her motherhood.
However, in affirming that Mary is a type of the Church, the Council does not intend to equate her with the figures or types of the Old Testament, but instead to affirm that in her the spiritual reality proclaimed and represented is completely fulfilled.
In fact, the Blessed Virgin is a type of the Church, not as an imperfect prefiguration, but as the spiritual fullness which will be found in various ways in the Church’s life. The particular relationship that exists here between the image and the reality represented is based on the divine plan, which establishes a close bond between Mary and the Church. The plan of salvation which orders the prefigurations of the Old Testament to fulfilment in the New Covenant likewise determines that Mary would live in a perfect way what was later to be fulfilled in the Church.
The perfection God conferred upon Mary, therefore, acquires its most authentic meaning if it is interpreted as a prelude to divine life in the Church.
Mary’s perfection surpasses that of all other Church members
4. After saying that Mary is a “type of the Church”, the Council adds that she is her “outstanding model”, an example of perfection to be followed and imitated. Indeed, Mary is an “outstanding model” because her perfection surpasses that of all the other members of the Church.
Significantly, the Council adds that she carries out this role “in faith and in charity”. Without forgetting that Christ is the first model, the Council suggests in this way that there are interior dispositions proper to the model realized in Mary, which help the Christian to establish an authentic relationship with Christ. In fact, by looking at Mary, the believer learns to live in deeper communion with Christ, to adhere to him with a living faith and to place his trust and his hope in him, loving him with his whole being.
The functions of “type and model of the Church” refer in particular to Mary’s virginal motherhood and shed light on her particular place in the work of salvation. This basic structure of Mary’s being is reflected in the motherhood and virginity of the Church.
It is dying Jesus you disagree with.
At the time of the Crucifixion the entire Church of the faithful consisted of John and Mary. So, no, not speculation.
Further, in Acts 12:17 the reference is plain: "the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ".
This is getting to be quite comical.
The Catholic church thinks the entire bible is about mary.. so what they say means nothing to me.
They can make Mary a pagan Goddess if they want to
No, mine doesn't:
| John | |||
| English: Douay-Rheims | Latin: Vulgata Clementina | Greek NT: Byzantine/Majority Text (2000) | |
| John 19 |
|||
| 27. | After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own. | Deinde dicit discipulo : Ecce mater tua. Et ex illa hora accepit eam discipulus in sua. | ειτα λεγει τω μαθητη ιδου η μητηρ σου και απ εκεινης της ωρας ελαβεν ο μαθητης αυτην εις τα ιδια |
So the guys holding the "keys to the Kingdom" were not part of the "church" , the guys who took it upon themselves to nane a new apostle were not the church?
Acts 12:17 But he beckoning to them with his hand to hold their peace, told how the Lord had brought him out of prison, and he said: Tell these things to James, and to the brethren. And going out, he went into another place.
.I think you mean Rev 12:17 ...You can be the seed of a pagan goddess if you like..I am from the seed of Abraham..the nation of Israel,, THAT is the "her" refereed to
No just rejecting it as a false tradition of men
“”No just rejecting it as a false tradition of men””
I reject your interpretations of Scripture and personal traditions that you can not reconcile with historical Christianity
At the time of the crucifixion St. Peter, the future pope, was warming himself at the fire and lying. The rest ran off. Have you ever read the gospel you keep denying?
Yes, Rev 12:17 makes a reference to Mary. Clear as a bell. That woman is described as mother of Christ. What pagan goddess?
Ummmm...this is not correct unless you feel that Mary was set apart from Original Sin.
TERTULLIAN (c. 200 AD) Finally, in every instance of vexation, contempt, and abhorrence, you pronounce the name of Satan. He it is whom we call the angel of wickedness, the author of every error, the corrupter of the whole world, through whom MAN was deceived in the very beginning so that he transgressed the command of God. On ACCOUNT of his transgression MAN was given over to death; and the WHOLE HUMAN RACE, which was INFECTED by his SEED, was made the TRANSMITTER of condemnation. (The Testmiony of the Soul 3:2, c. 200 AD)
ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 250 AD) If, in the case of the worst sinners and of those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the REMISSION OF THEIR SINS is granted and no one is held back from Baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an INFANT not be held back, who, having but recently been BORN, has done no sin [committed no personal sin], EXCEPT THAT, BORN OF THE FLESH ACCORDING TO ADAM, HE HAS CONTRACTED THE CONTAGION OF THAT OLD DEATH FROM HIS FIRST BEING BORN. For this very reason does he approach more easily to receive the REMISSION OF SINS: because the SINS FORGIVEN HIM are NOT his OWN but THOSE OF ANOTHER [i.e. inherited from Adam]. (Letters 64:5 of Cyprian and his 66 colleagues in Council to Fidus)
ST. ATHANASIUS (c. 360 AD) Adam, the first man, altered his course, and through sin death came into the world....When Adam transgressed, SIN reached out TO ALL MEN. (Discourses Against the Arians 1:51)
There is, of course, more biblical evidence:
(Psa 14:1-3 KJV) The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. {2} The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. {3} They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Gal 3:22-23 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.
What then about Enoch who walked with God?
Everything comes from God. It is grace that saves and grace that pardons. Enoch walked with God simply because God bestowed His grace to him. Noah was righteous because God found favor with Noah. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb because that is what God wanted. Paul was made righteous because God decided to reveal Himself to Paul. Mary was blessed because God chose Mary to bless her. All of these people were sinners yet God looked favorably upon them with His grace and mercy.
And so is the sinlessness of Mary. This is my point. Your argument that her blessing could not have happened is the sole argument that God could not have chosen her because that’s somehow, ‘unfair’. That’s all you’ve got.
No, you've made the claim that the early church fathers supported the fact that Mary was sinless. The fact is they did not. They supported the doctrine of original sin in which ALL have sinned because we are ALL from the race of Adam. You would like people to believe that Mary was an exception, but that is not recorded in scripture nor in the early church fathers' writings on original sin.
Indeed he could. But he chose her. There is no inconsistancy. God can bless any one of us in the same fashion, but he has chosen not to do so.
Yes, there is an inconsistency. If God wants everyone to be saved, and He can just **POOF** and you're sinless, then why would He need or want His precious Son to undergo the humiliation, scorn, and horrible death by the likes of us? Mary's model of being sinless from birth because of God would have been the rule-not the exception. But He didn't do this for John the Baptist who was filled with the Holy Spirit from birth. Nothing in scripture even says that Mary was filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb.
“I’m calling you out on this. “Worship” is the Mass or Eucharistic adoration. Its center is the Triune God. Parishes may chose devotions in honor of various saints, especially the Blessed Virgin Mary, but they aren’t “worship.”
That’s what a lot of people tell me. But to me these are arguments over the meanings of words. I personally experienced the worship of Mary. We had a girls’ group devoted exclusively to her worship. We sang songs about her being the queen of heaven, the glorious sweet name of Mary, etc., dressed statues of her in ceremonial robes and put crowns on the statue’s head, flowers at her feet, etc. We had a statue of her brought to our house so the whole family could kneel down before it, bow down and pray to her. And a whole lot more of that sort of stuff. It was clearly Mary worship.
How would you explain “If you can’t find Jesus, look for his Mother”?
“FWIW, I’ve encountered a lot of it at job sites in Chicago. It is almost exclusively Hispanic immigrants that are caught up in it.”
Yes, I saw a lot of that in Guatemala, too. Where I grew up there were a lot of people of Italian heritage.
Well, that's comforting to know. :O)
They are condemning the idea that the Lord's flesh was not his own but merely a dwelling place of the Word.
I understand your point. However, I believe there are variations to what is being said here. Too bad the council isn't logged on so we could ask them.
That "heresy," as you call it (it's not), has been around since the beginning, and not only Catholics engage in it. You should see the Eastern Orthodox's devotion to Mary.
Interesting how you parse that. It is a reference to Mary as the Second Eve that you are avoiding?
The Mass happens daily, several times a day, in fact, at most parishes. That is true Catholic worship. What you label “worship,” (it is only to your biased eye) is veneration. Many Catholic parishes devote space for the 24-hours a day/7 days a week adoration of the Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament! The attention and emphasis is on specifically on God.
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