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To: LiteKeeper

Trying the same straw man again, it did not work for Michael Behe, and Casey Luskin what makes you think it will work for you?

An “Irreducible Core?” Here’s where things get really, really interesting. Luskin maintains that the “irreducible core” is a “long-standing concept within ID thinking,” and argues that this concept is well-supported by current research on the system. Well, is it? Does the blood-clotting system really contain an “irreducible core?”

Not even close. Luskin’s own sketch of that core highlights seven (count ‘em) components in that core (click here for that image. The core is the red box in his diagram). Those seven components are:

Tissue Factor
Factor VIII (Antihemophilic Factor)
Factor X (Stuart Factor)
Factor V (Proaccelerin)
Factor II (Prothrombin)
Factor XIII (Fibrin Stabilizing Factor)
Fibrinogen

According to Luskin, these form an “irreducible core” without which blood clotting would not be possible.

Once again, ID fails, and the culprit isn’t a liberal judge, the ACLU, or even a slick-talking smoke-and-mirrors biology prof. It’s nature itself, in the form of a collaboration between a nasty little beast called the lamprey (Petromyzon marinus), and a pioneering scientist who has spent his career working out the evolution of the clotting cascade. That scientist is Russell Doolittle of the University of California at San Diego Diego (which, as it happens, is the very same university where Casey got two degrees in Earth Science while simultaneously founding and managing his creationist “Intelligent Design and Evolution Awareness” [IDEA] Club).

His 2008 paper [Doolittle et al, 2008] reports on a careful search through the lamprey genome. The lamprey, as luck would have it, has a perfectly functional clotting system, and it lacks not only the three factors missing in jawed fish, but also Factors IX and V.

Now, Luskin could object that Factor IX wasn’t part of his “core,” but Factor V certainly was. And, as Behe pointed out at length, the absence of factor IX causes potentially-fatal hemophilia in humans, which was part of his argument for the irreducible complexity of the whole system. The lamprey genome does contain a single gene, somewhat related to Factor X and Factor V, but not identical to either. As the paper’s authors put it: “In summary, the genomic picture presented here suggests that lampreys have a simpler clotting scheme than later diverging vertebrates. In particular, they appear to lack the equivalents of factors VIII (or V) and IX, suggesting that the gene duplication leading to these factors, synchronous or not, occurred after their divergence from other vertebrates.” [p. 195]. To make things even worse for Luskin’s “core,” a previous study from Doolittle’s lab [Jiang & Doolittle, 2003] had already shown that the bits and pieces (protein domains) of most of the clotting factor proteins are present in a primitive, invertebrate chordate. This is exactly what one would expect from an evolutionary trajectory leading to the current system in vertebrates — the assembly of a complex pathway from pre-existing parts.

So, what are we left with? Nothing more than a vain attempt to pretend that ID’s collapse in the Dover case was the result of misrepresentation and deception. For Mr. Luskin and his employers at the Discovery Institute, the generation of sound and fury continues, but in scientific terms, their continuing noise signifies nothing more than the utter emptiness of their failed ideas.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/01/02/smoke-and-mirrors-whales-and-lampreys-a-guest-post-by-ken-miller/

Might I suggest a little bit of independent research instead of regurgitating the same old debunked creationist/id talking points.


32 posted on 02/15/2010 5:13:14 PM PST by Ira_Louvin (Go tell them people lost in sin, Theres a higher power ,They need not fear the works of men.)
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To: Ira_Louvin
Lot's sound and fury, but no answer. You walk backwards from the present. Start at the beginning, and explain why any organism would retain a protein with no apparent purpose? Or, did all of the proteins in the eel appear all at once. The reality is, there is no explanation for retention of a single protein, much less 5 or 7 or 13. There is no purpose in them...there is no rationale for retention. And there is no rationale why these apparently random proteins would be begin to work in harmony with one another.

BTW - your reference to my, what was it, "regurgitating" creationist talking points - did you think all of the information you posted? Or, were you dependent upon the research of someone else? We all cite our "experts" as justification for the positions we take. I happen to think that my "experts" are right, and more logical than yours.

34 posted on 02/15/2010 6:03:22 PM PST by LiteKeeper ("It's the peoples' seat!")
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