Should politicians heed their prophet or pope?

One day he's dissing gay activists as immoral "buggers" and perhaps the "greatest threat" to the nation. Then, he's embracing anti-discrimination legislation and conceding the "right" gay residents have to job and housing protections.

In November, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints announced its support of Salt Lake City's measures safeguarding gay and transgender residents from discrimination.

Suddenly, Buttars, R-West Jordan, and his Mormon colleagues on the right who had vigorously -- and vociferously -- opposed such laws faced a choice: Should they back or buck their church?

This same "follow the prophet" pressure gripped LDS liberals when the Utah-based church came out in favor of California's Proposition 8, defining marriage as exclusively between a man and a woman. For Latter-day Saints, adherence to their prophet's instructions is more than an abstract notion. It is repeated often from the pulpit and written into the Mormon identity.

Roman Catholic lawmakers bump into similar dilemmas when the pope or bishops weigh in on issues from abortion to health care to capital punishment. How much deference, if any, do politicians of faith owe to their ecclesiastical leaders, especially in religions with top-down hierarchies?

Catholics regard their leaders as stand-ins for Christ who speak on moral issues with an undeniable authority. The church's catechism states "the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms."

"Whenever people claim, 'the church says,' that's a clue that one side [of the debate] is trying to shut down the other," says Alpine resident Charles Randall Paul, a Mormon and president of the Foundation for Interreligious Diplomacy. "It's possible for Mormons to say, 'You're a prophet, but I think you're wrong about this.' "

Like many religious people, Kristine Haglund, an LDS writer in Boston, embraces statements by church leaders "that tend to confirm my prejudices, and [looks] for ways to rationalize, historicize, relativize or contextualize the ones that are challenging."

Still, Haglund, editor of Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought , says she takes seriously the idea that the Holy Spirit can help members know when the LDS prophet is speaking for God.

"In the absence of that witness," she says, "I feel that God expects me to exercise my own intellect and the capacity for moral judgment that is a gift to all God's children to arrive at a position that seems reasonable and just."

But that's a complicated, messy process. What if not everyone arrives at the same conclusion?

Latter-day dilemma » At some point in their careers, all Mormon politicians face the prospect that their opinions could diverge from LDS stands on issues such as women's rights, abortion, euthanasia, immigration, same-sex marriage, liquor laws or even what to do with a particular block of downtown Salt Lake City.

"If the church takes a position on a public-policy issue contrary to popular sentiment, as a public official, I have two choices: Either I follow the will of the people and be popular or follow my faith leaders, risking the rejection of the voters," says Stuart Reid, a former Salt Lake City councilman. "When faced with this dilemma, it's my guiding principle that devoted Mormons involved in politics should always choose to follow their faith leaders no matter their own personal views or the political consequences."

Reid, now an Ogden developer who lost a bid for Salt Lake City mayor, says he "held to that principle and experienced the consequences."

For its part, the LDS Church long has said it is politically neutral and, even on those occasions when it takes a stand, members usually are free to follow their conscience without facing church sanctions. Mormon voters, however, may not approve of politicians who seem to either blindly follow or openly disagree with the church.

Utah legislators who are LDS mention the need to balance their respect for Mormon officials with representing the voters who elected them.

"I am a really devout, committed member and believe strongly in the tenets of the religion. I take seriously whatever positions the church takes on a particular issue," says Rep. Ronda Menlove, R-Garland, whose husband is an LDS stake president. "I am also a pragmatist, [so] not all of my votes are driven by what the LDS Church says."

She -- like Sens. Lyle Hillyard, R-Logan, and Curt Bramble, R-Provo -- agrees with the LDS Church's endorsement of the city's anti-discrimination ordinances (also adopted by Salt Lake County), but Menlove is cautious about how broadly to apply them in the state.

Lawmakers reached a tenuous truce last week delaying any action for or against such statutes until next year. The buzz around the Capitol was that some LDS lawmakers were ready to defy their faith's leaders and strike down Salt Lake City's anti-discrimination ordinances even though the church had urged legislators to leave them intact.

"I am concerned about some elements in the Salt Lake City statutes," Hillyard says. "I represent my constituency, and I suspect if the City Council [members] in Logan wanted to do it, they would have."

The longtime Republican senator says if he disagreed with Mormon officials, he would feel comfortable taking a different position.

"I understand," Hillyard says, "they have a perspective not only of Salt Lake City but of Utah and the world that may be different than my constituents'."

LDS legislators also are divided on immigration policies, although their church has urged a "compassionate" approach.

"My constituency has been very adamant in support of legal immigration," Sen. Karen Morgan, D-Cottonwood Heights, says, "and I've been pretty firm with that position. I haven't been influenced by any one religious organization, whether my own or anyone else's."

For his part, Bramble, who grew up Methodist and attended Notre Dame and then Brigham Young University, where he joined the LDS Church, says he never has found himself at odds with his faith.

"The stands they have taken have not been inconsistent with my own personal philosophy," says Bramble, who opposed last year's Common Ground initiative that included housing and employment safeguards for gays but now supports Salt Lake City's statutes. "It's a chicken-or-the-egg question."

"Ecclesiastical positions and political positions are not the same thing," he says, referring particularly to the church's views on immigration. "I certainly know the church's position on compassion for all human beings, but I don't think it's appropriate for any church to be in the position of enforcing immigration laws."

Catholic model » There are as many ways of responding to issues as there are Catholics and politicians, but the church has clear moral teachings on issues such as abortion, euthanasia, stem-cell research, same-sex marriage, immigration, health care and social justice. It teaches, for example, that abortion is wrong, that people ought not be involved and that government ought not support it.

What about Catholic politicians, then, who support abortion rights? Are they, to use the faith's vernacular, "wrongfully cooperating with evil"?

Some bishops, including former Utah Bishop William Weigand, now retired in Sacramento, Calif., believe such politicians should not take Communion during Mass.

"As your bishop," he said in a 2003 homily, "I have to say clearly that anyone, politician or otherwise, who thinks it is acceptable for a Catholic to be pro-abortion is in very great error, puts his or her soul at risk and is not in good standing with the church."

Some go further and argue that Catholics who vote for such politicians should be denied Communion.

Notre Dame theologian and legal scholar Cathleen Kaveny opposes such sanctions, which she believes politicize the issues, without considering a politician's motivations. She also points to difficulties facing other public officials.

"Should a district judge quit rather than issue a decision that supports Roe v. Wade? Most Catholics would say no. That's not within his scope," Kaveny says. "When are you allowed to go along with something and when do you have to stop and say, 'I can't do that?' "

The strong emphasis on obedience to authority in Catholicism is matched by an equally strong emphasis upon individual conscience as "the voice of God inside us," explains Mathew Schmalz, a Catholic who teaches Mormon studies at the College of the Holy Cross in Worcester, Mass. "One's conscience might very well dictate that one has to disobey that teaching in special circumstances. I am required to take [church teaching] seriously and to critically examine my own conscience if I disagree."

As a Catholic, Sen. Ross Romero, D-Salt Lake City, respects Utah Bishop John Wester on his faith's overall teachings, but disagrees on some public-policy issues.

"I would be strongly in favor of counseling any family member about alternatives to abortion, and I would encourage adoption or foster care that would accommodate for that life," he says. "Yet, legislatively, I don't believe it is appropriate for the government to be overly engaged in that decision-making for individuals. As a matter of public policy, I have defended a woman's right to choose."

Romero also backs capital punishment, while his church opposes it. He does align with the bishops on welcoming and not punishing those coming to America for a better life.

The church has a role relative to "advancing the human condition," Romero says. "Elected officials share that role but also have the additional burden for public safety, knowing who is in our community and that they're behaving well, not committing crimes and that they're not manipulated or abused in a black market."

Romero says he recently met with Wester to discuss upcoming legislation, much as other legislators huddled with LDS officials.

Catholic bishops are free to talk about morality, says Patrick Shea, a Utah attorney and former director of the Bureau of Land Management under President Bill Clinton, "but cannot and should not, in ecclesiastical roles, speak on ethics. That is a secular matter suited for give and take in the marketplace of ideas."

Shea, a Jesuit-trained Catholic, was outraged by the bishops' opposition to health-care reform because they feared government funds would go toward abortions.

"The idea that some nuanced and Machiavellian statements from bishops sitting in Washington would negate the opportunity for 40 million Americans who don't have health insurance is incongruous and, in my judgment, immoral," Shea says. "I am against abortion, but I don't think Roe v. Wade should be set aside. It is the law of the land."

Shea, who doesn't think there has been a good pope since John XXIII died in 1963, says he would take advice from Weigand or from Monsignor Terrence Fitzgerald, the Salt Lake City Diocese's vicar general.

But when the bishops "cross the wall and move from morality to ethics," he says, "they have no greater credibility than the bus driver or the garbage man."

The apostle Judas Iscariot had a seat at the Lord’s Last Supper Which means Jesus gave Judas every opportunity to exercise his will to do the right thing.
___________________________________________________

Actually no thats not what happened...

But mormons tend to make heroes out of the villians of the Christian Bible...

Resty you really ought to read the Bible for yourself andf not rely on FARMS to feed you erroneous interpretations of the Chrisitain Bib le in order to attempt a futile validation of mormon literature and doctrines...

Jesus knew that Judas was the one who was going to betray Him

The course of Judas was set...

Jesus said that the one who would betray Him was sitting right there at the table...

Judas was full of guilt an had been found out. He knew that Jesus knew so he said “Is it I”

Jesus said “Yes” but only Judas heard Him.

The others were distracted. Why ??? Because if they had heard Judas admit that he was about betray Jesus they would have torn him to shreds and Jesus would not have been betrayed in time to die on the cross as the Passover Lamb...

They asked one another who it was who would betray him and then went back to their favorite subject...who would sit beside Jesus when he came into his kingdom...

Nor did Jesus bother to cast Satan out of Judas... Satan would have loved that...

john whispered to Jesus “who is it “ Jesus murmers back “The one who I give my bread to.”

Jesus dips His bread in the oil and gives it to Judas.

Jesus said out loud to Judas. “what you are planning to do, do quickly.”

Everyone else at the table thought Jesus was sending judas to give some money to the poor for Passover, because judas carried the money bag.

Only Jesus, John and Judas knew the truth at the time....

and now you know it...

Resty whittlin dpwn the cross and watering down the Gospel and trying to cover up by claiming that the Bible is wrong wont fly here...

We all have read the Bible for ourselves...

For you to read for yourself this time...

In the following scriptures note that Judas was already GONE when Jesus demonstrated the Lord’s Supper, or Communion...

Judas was NOT part of the celebration...

Nor did Jesus tell him about the Holy Ghost or the future...

If Judas was going to have a 2nd chance done you think Jesus would have told him about the Holy Ghost ???

Dont you think Jesus would have included judas in the prayer for the future ???

However Jesus did wash the feet of Judas ...

here we go....

Mat 26:14 ¶ Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,

Mat 26:15 And said [unto them], What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.

Mat 26:16 And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.

Mat 26:17 ¶ Now the first [day] of the [feast of] unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?

Mat 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.

Mat 26:19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.

Mat 26:20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.

Mat 26:21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

Mat 26:22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?

Mat 26:23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth [his] hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.

Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Mat 26:25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.

Mat 26:26 ¶ And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed [it], and brake [it], and gave [it] to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.

Mat 26:30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives. Mattew 26:14-30

Mat 26:46 Rise, let us be going: behold, he is at hand that doth betray me.

Mat 26:47 ¶ And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people.

Mat 26:48 Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.

Mat 26:49 And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.

Mat 26:50 And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him. Matthew 22:46-50

Mar 14:10 ¶ And Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve, went unto the chief priests, to betray him unto them.

Mar 14:11 And when they heard [it], they were glad, and promised to give him money. And he sought how he might conveniently betray him.

Mar 14:12 ¶ And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

Mar 14:13 And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him.

Mar 14:14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

Mar 14:15 And he will shew you a large upper room furnished [and] prepared: there make ready for us.

Mar 14:16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.

Mar 14:17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.

Mar 14:18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.

Mar 14:19 And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, [Is] it I? and another [said, Is] it I?

Mar 14:20 And he answered and said unto them, [It is] one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish.

Mar 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

Mar 14:22 ¶ And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake [it], and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.

Mar 14:23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave [it] to them: and they all drank of it.

Mar 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

Mar 14:25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

Mar 14:26 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives. Mark 13:10-26

Luk 22:1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

Luk 22:2 And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.

Luk 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

Luk 22:4 And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.

Luk 22:5 And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money.

Luk 22:6 And he promised, and sought opportunity to betray him unto them in the absence of the multitude.

Luk 22:7 ¶ Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.

Luk 22:8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.

Luk 22:9 And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare?

Luk 22:10 And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.

Luk 22:11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

Luk 22:12 And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready.

Luk 22:13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.

Luk 22:14 ¶ And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.

Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

Luk 22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

Luk 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide [it] among yourselves:

Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Luk 22:21 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me [is] with me on the table.

Luk 22:22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

Luk 22:23 And they began to enquire among themselves, which of them it was that should do this thing.

Luk 22:24 ¶ And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.

Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.

Luk 22:26 But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

Luk 22:27 For whether [is] greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? [is] not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

Luk 22:28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.

Luk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

Luk 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luk 22:31 ¶ And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [to have] you, that he may sift [you] as wheat:

Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Luk 22:33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.

Luk 22:34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

Luk 22:35 ¶ And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.

Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Luk 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

Luk 22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here [are] two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Luk 22:39 ¶ And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him. Luke 22:1-39

Luk 22:47 ¶ And while he yet spake behold a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Jesus to kiss him.

Luk 22:48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss? Luke 22:47, 48

Jhn 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

Jhn 13:2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s [son], to betray him;

Jhn 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

Jhn 13:4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.

Jhn 13:5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe [them] with the towel wherewith he was girded.

Jhn 13:6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?

Jhn 13:7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.

Jhn 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.

Jhn 13:9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also [my] hands and [my] head.

Jhn 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash [his] feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

Jhn 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

Jhn 13:12 ¶ So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?

Jhn 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for [so] I am.

Jhn 13:14 If I then, [your] Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another’s feet.

Jhn 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

Jhn 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Jhn 13:17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.

Jhn 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

Jhn 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am [he].

Jhn 13:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jhn 13:21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

Jhn 13:22 Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.

Jhn 13:23 Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.

Jhn 13:24 Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.

Jhn 13:25 He then lying on Jesus’ breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?

Jhn 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped [it]. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave [it] to Judas Iscariot, [the son] of Simon.

Jhn 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Jhn 13:28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.

Jhn 13:29 For some [of them] thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy [those things] that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.

Jhn 13:30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.

Jhn 13:31 ¶ Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.

Jhn 13:32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him. John 13:1-32

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